Behold I STAND at the door and Knock Rev 3

[OldRegular]

Strange! I thought the term "If ANY MAN hear my voice" applied to 100% of men.

But then I remembered you and others are Calvinists/Reformed/DoG and that you have a completely different set of definitions for words. The word "all" to you means a limited few.

You see, when Jesus said "If ANY MAN hear my voice" he began to speak to all men, not just members of this particular church.

And when Jesus said, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" he was also speaking to all men, not just members of this particular church.

Winman,

You can't possibly understand Revelation 3:20 without including both Revelation 3:19 and 3:21. I repeat:

God rebukes and chastens those whom He loves but who are are disobedient {3:19}.

Those who overcome can only refer to believers {3:21}. Note that Jesus Christ says: even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Meaning little or nothing to an unbeliever!

 

[OldRegular]

The counsel of the Lord is that the true believers of Laodicea would buy of Him gold tried in the fire and white raiment. This is not to imply that the blessings of grace are for sale; those in the church were universally spoken of as wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. The only thing the believers had of value to the Lord was themselves, the purchase price was be zealous therefore, and repent. That there were true believers at Laodicea is also shown by the Lord’s words: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. The chastening if the Lord in the event of sin in the life of the believer is evidence that conversion has occurred. The letter to the Hebrews is very blunt in addressing this problem, as follows:

Ryan you incorrectly respond to the above as follows:

You are using circular reasoning by assuming the salient point of the Calvinist argument rather than showing that it is true.

You are chasing your tail to get Calvinism out of the above statement by me. I believe that could be called "circular reasoning"! Furthermore, I make no assumptions about Calvinism; I don't even make assumptions about the Scriptural Doctrine of Sovereign Grace. If you understand Scripture you don't need to make assumptions!

You should have included the following Scripture from Hebrews which further defines those whom God loves; but please read carefully, particularly verses 7 & 8!

Hebrews 12:4-8, KJV
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[Winman]

Winman,

You can't possibly understand Revelation 3:20 without including both Revelation 3:19 and 3:21. I repeat:

I can read, I have read those verses, as well as what Jesus said to all the churches.

Nevertheless, in Rev 3:20 Jesus says "If ANY MAN hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him"

Do you really think he is literally saying he is knocking on the door at the church at Laodicea?

No, he is now speaking to any man anywhere reading this scripture. I hear Jesus's voice through his word. He is telling me he is knocking at MY DOOR, which naturally implies he desires entrance. And Jesus has promised if I will but open the door he will come into me, and sup with me. This is speaking of an intimate relationship, it is speaking of being saved.

And then in verse 22 it is made even more certain that verse 20 applies to all men when Jesus says, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches". So, again I am told that this scripture applies to ME and everyone else reading this scripture.

In fact, the book of Revelation begins by telling us that anyone who hears the words of this book is blessed;

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The entire book of Revelation is written to whosoever will read it and HEAR what it says.

You are reading it, but you are not HEARING it. Why? Because it refutes Calvinism/DoG. Calvinists do not like Revelation 3:20 because it shows man plays a part in his salvation, man must open the door of his heart and invite Jesus in.

Now, whether you like it or not, Jesus said that YOU have to open the door.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldRegular

The counsel of the Lord is that the true believers of Laodicea would buy of Him gold tried in the fire and white raiment. This is not to imply that the blessings of grace are for sale; those in the church were universally spoken of as wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. The only thing the believers had of value to the Lord was themselves, the purchase price was be zealous therefore, and repent. That there were true believers at Laodicea is also shown by the Lord’s words: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.

​

You are using circular reasoning by assuming the salient point of the Calvinist argument rather than showing that it is true.

By contrast to your assumption above that God only loves true believers - we have ..

"God so Loved the WORLD that He gave" John 3:16.

You then argue the "whom I love I rebuke" statement in Rev 3 as if God had said "I only love those who are now true believers" - -- when in fact that idea is only found in Calvinism - not the Bible.

Thus the proof of your own position is a circular reference back to a tenant of Calvinism not found in the Bible.

You are chasing your tail to get Calvinism out of the above statement by me. I believe that could be called "circular reasoning"! Furthermore, I make no assumptions about Calvinism; I don't even make assumptions about the Scriptural Doctrine of Sovereign Grace. If you understand Scripture you don't need to make assumptions!

Then "God so Loved the WORLD -- yes really!" is one of the things you now affirm?

If so - how can you argue that Rev 3 "those whom I love I rebuke" does not include the WORLD - since God so Loved "the WORLD" according to scripture?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The entire book of Revelation is written to whosoever will read it and HEAR what it says.

You are reading it, but you are not HEARING it. Why? Because it refutes Calvinism/DoG. Calvinists do not like Revelation 3:20 because it shows man plays a part in his salvation, man must open the door of his heart and invite Jesus in.

Now, whether you like it or not, Jesus said that YOU have to open the door.

indeed -- Bible details "matter".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

I can read, I have read those verses, as well as what Jesus said to all the churches.

Nevertheless, in Rev 3:20 Jesus says "If ANY MAN hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him"

Do you really think he is literally saying he is knocking on the door at the church at Laodicea?

No He is not literally knocking on the door of the Church at Laodicea He has already ascended don't you know. You correctly say He is speaking to the churches and He is speaking to only the redeemed in those churches, not to lost people in general. That is exactly why you must interpret Verse 20 in the context of Verses 19 and 21.

 

[OldRegular]

Then "God so Loved the WORLD -- yes really!" is one of the things you now affirm?

If so - how can you argue that Rev 3 "those whom I love I rebuke" does not include the WORLD - since God so Loved "the WORLD" according to scripture?

in Christ,

Bob

If you are arguing that the world includes all mankind does all mankind go to Heaven or only those who perfectly keep the law and ordinances and live a sinless life as you seem to be arguing. Or are you really arguing that since no one is without sin none will be saved, except a few SDA, and God will condemn all those He loves to damnation. It is difficult to really know since you seem to be fixated on Romans 11!

You really should not ignore the following which I have posted on two occasions.

Hebrews 12:4-8, KJV
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Note in particular Verses 7 and 8.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Anyone can prove anything by the way you two handle the scriptures as you simply and consistently RUN away from context, JUMP to another context and then PIT one text against another. This is the modus operandi of both of you and your system of theologies.

Nothing you can say, no running, no jumping, no pitting, can change the fact that Revelation 3:19 introduces 3:20 and discipline/chastening is ONLY for children of God and NEVER for lost people. The threat of Chastening is in verse 19 the way to avoid it is in verse 20. Sin separates fellowship between God's children and Christ and that is the meaning of verse 20 interpreted in light of verse 19. Nothing you can say will change that contextual fact.

Amen....you got their number:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Following are some remarks that I made regarding the passage under discussion in a study of the Book of Revelation. I believe they are in general agreement with your understanding of the passage in the OP.

The spiritual condition of the church at Laodicea was worse than that at Sardis. Even the church at Sardis which the Lord spoke of as dead had a few names ... which have not defiled their garments . There was not even this limited praise for those at Laodicea. In their pride filled contentment, the church at Laodicea thought they were spiritually rich but the Lord says thou knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

The fate of the church at Laodicea is apparently sealed. The other churches [Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira, and Smyrna] that were reprimanded by the Lord were commanded to repent to avoid judgment. However, there is no such promise to the church at Laodicea as a whole. Rather the Lord is brief: I will spue thee out of my mouth. However, the infinite grace of God is manifest in the exhortation of the Saviour:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

The counsel of the Lord is that the true believers of Laodicea would buy of Him gold tried in the fire and white raiment. This is not to imply that the blessings of grace are for sale; those in the church were universally spoken of as wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. The only thing the believers had of value to the Lord was themselves, the purchase price was be zealous therefore, and repent. That there were true believers at Laodicea is also shown by the Lord’s words: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. The chastening if the Lord in the event of sin in the life of the believer is evidence that conversion has occurred. The letter to the Hebrews is very blunt in addressing this problem, as follows:

Hebrews 12:4-8, KJV
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

In discussing this last part of the letters to the seven churches it is well to keep in mind that the Lord is talking to the Church, those who have been truly redeemed to God. Although the local church may indeed include unregenerate people in its membership, these can in no way be considered a legitimate part of the ekklesia, the ones called out.

The letter to the churches concludes with a promise to the few who believe.

Revelation 3:19-22, KJV
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Jesus Christ follows His counsel to the true believers at Laodicea and all churches, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, with the promise, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock. This promise[] is only to the regenerate members who constitute the churches. If they repent following chastening, rouse themselves from their false contentment or their sins, and return to their ‘first love’ then He will restore that fellowship that has been broken, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. If they do not repent but continue in their sin then the judgment of God will come, even a temporal judgment on the believer [Hebrews 10:29,30].​

See dear friend...this commentary is exactly why the bretheren need you here...to add context and clarity which is too few & far between these days.:thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

No He is not literally knocking on the door of the Church at Laodicea He has already ascended don't you know. You correctly say He is speaking to the churches and He is speaking to only the redeemed in those churches, not to lost people in general. That is exactly why you must interpret Verse 20 in the context of Verses 19 and 21.

No, he is speaking to ANY MAN. That is the part you and others seem unable to grasp.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus didn't say, Behold I stand at the door, and knock, if a redeemed member of this Laodicean church hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him...

No, Jesus said if ANY MAN hears my voice, because he is speaking to ANY MAN now.

And in verse 22 when he says, He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, he is also speaking to any man who will listen.

 

[The Biblicist]

What you have taught has been proven to be a llie - untruth - false and the evidence has been placed squarely before you and STILL YOU IGNORE IT.



The truth is that it is you that does not know what "any man" means. Have you ever heard of a little thing called "context"???? In other words the words "any man" CANNOT refer to all men without exceptions but only all men who fit the condition described in verse 20. Not "every man" in the world fits that condition.

Second, "any man" not only is limited to those who have shut Christ out of their life but to those whom the Lord loveth in the sense of divine chastening (v. 19).

Third, your general approach to scripture is a cut and paste kind of mentality that is designed simply to prove your own preassumptions rather than attempting objective honest Bible intepretation.

Winman repeats his "anyone" argument when it has been thoroughly repudiated as in my post above, which neither Winman, Bob or Hank have dared address.

Ridicule is their only weapon of defense. It will not matter how much evidence we place in front of these kind of persons as no amount of evidence will be sufficient because they will defend their errors no matter what. This is why it is a waste of time to discuss Bible with these kind of persons. They have no interest in truth but in merely defending their unbiblical dogmas at any cost. They are spiritually incapable of receiving truth.

 

[BobRyan]

No, he is speaking to ANY MAN. That is the part you and others seem unable to grasp.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus didn't say, Behold I stand at the door, and knock, if a redeemed member of this Laodicean church hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him...

No, Jesus said if ANY MAN hears my voice, .

True - and those in Laodicea did not have the robe of Christ's righteousness - they were naked - they are lost but loved by God who "So Loved the WORLD that He gave".

In almost each one of the churches mentioned some are saved some are lost. Those without the righteousness of Christ covering them are lost.

But that is fine for God came to "Seek and save the lost" for "God so LOVED the World that He gave...".

It is to those whom He loves that He sends his rebuke, His wakeup call.

The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the calvinist-arbitrarily-select "few" of Matt 7 on the narrow road.


Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Not "He that hath an ear and is arbitrarily select to be one of the FEW of Matt 7".

There is no way to limit "He that hath an ear" to " only those people already saved and believing in Christ at the time I write this letter"

---------------------------------

hence statements like the ones we find in Rev 3 by the same author that is writing in John 6 - also quoting the teaching of Christ.

"I STAND and the door and knock - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev 3.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

 

[OldRegular]

Bob you and Winman both post Scripture showing that Jesus Christ is speaking to the Churches then ignore that fact! Strange! Very Strange!

 

[Winman]

Bob you and Winman both post Scripture showing that Jesus Christ is speaking to the Churches then ignore that fact! Strange! Very Strange!

No, we both agree that God is speaking to the churches, but that God is also speaking to every man that ever reads these scriptures.

What part of, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" do you not understand? That is a very simple verse that I easily understood when I was a young boy. It is God telling me to listen to the things he is telling these churches. These messages are not just for these churches, but for me and all other men as well.

 

[The Biblicist]

Bob you and Winman both post Scripture showing that Jesus Christ is speaking to the Churches then ignore that fact! Strange! Very Strange!

They don't care what they have to say to defend their preassumptions. They could care less about the IMMEDIATE context and how verse 19 is related to verse 20 and defines the bounardies of its application. They could care less that "any man" has contextual limitations. We cannot rationally debate with irrational individuals who make up their own rules of hermeneutics as they go along.

 

[Winman]

They don't care what they have to say to defend their preassumptions. They could care less about the IMMEDIATE context and how verse 19 is related to verse 20 and defines the bounardies of its application. They could care less that "any man" has contextual limitations. We cannot rationally debate with irrational individuals who make up their own rules of hermeneutics as they go along.

And you do not care that Jesus said, He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

What is so ironic is that you believe you are one of the privileged few that God has granted to have an ear to hear, yet you refuse to hear what Jesus said.

That would be funny if it were not so tragic.

 

[The Biblicist]

And you do not care that Jesus said, He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

You are so irrational that it does little good to even attempt to reason with you. Can't you see who is the addressee of this statement? It is not the lost world but the churches but that contextual fact is of no consequence to your methods of interpertation????? No, you just put in their "any one" you like regardless who the writer explictily says he is addressing. The problem that has been diagosed refers to the people who are being addressed not the world. Use just a tiny bit of common sense.

Neither do you even care that verse 19 cannot possibly fit the persons you choose to arbritraily READ INTO verse 20 when NOT ONE WORD in the epistle is addressed to the lost or the world. You READ IT INTO the text because YOU MUST to fit YOUR theology.

There is no hope to discuss scripture with such a mind that simply makes up their rules of hermeneutics and reads into a text whatever pleases them when in fact NOT ONE WORD is addressed in this epistle to the lost. You are willfully blind and love it so and that is tragic.

 

[BobRyan]

Winman repeats his "anyone" argument when it has been thoroughly repudiated .

Calvinism's downsize water-down attempt to get "World" to not actually mean "world" and "all men" not to mean "all men" and "God is not willing that ANY should perish" to not mean that God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" and their downsize of 1John 2:2 and their downsize of John 1 and their downsize of .... has been thoroughly debunked repudiated and utterly disproven.

And "yet" Calvinists choose to cling to their tradition "anyway".

Well all I can say to that is -- they have free will they can make such choices if they like - but the rest of us will need to go with the actual Word of God - as it reads.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

And you do not care that Jesus said, He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

.

A more open ended egalitarian form of offer to "all" can hardly be imagined. Sort of like God wants "all men everywhere" to repent 1 Tim 2 in His consistent (I-do-not-change Mal 4) -- "God so Loved the World" John 3 Gospel model.

And yet for some Calvinists this is just "so many Bible details to be ignored" in favor of the man-made-tradition of Calvinism.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

A more open ended egalitarian form of offer to "all" can hardly be imagined. Sort of like God wants "all men everywhere" to repent 1 Tim 2 in His consistent (I-do-not-change Mal 4) -- "God so Loved the World" John 3 Gospel model.

And yet for some Calvinists this is just "so many Bible details to be ignored" in favor of the man-made-tradition of Calvinism.

in Christ,

Bob

Oh, they will say that God has to give a man the ability to hear, and so this verse only means a few select men.

That is why I said Biblicist was ironic, he thinks he is one of these few select persons that has been given the ability to hear, and still he refuses to listen to what Jesus said.