Featured Could God create someone like Himself?

I do not believe God can create absolute perfection, because absolute perfection belongs to God himself.

One thing that has puzzled me is that in the New Jerusalem, the leaves of the tree of life are for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

So, perhaps heaven is not quite what we imagine. Perhaps we will have to eat of the tree of life and make medicine from the leaves to counter aging and injury.

Can a person make a mistake in heaven? John seemed to;

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

John twice made the mistake in heaven of worshiping either a man or angel, and was corrected. So it seems folks can make mistakes in heaven. Perhaps we will be able to physically injure ourselves as well.

That said, scripture says our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit when we are saved;

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

We are partakers of the divine nature;

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We now partake or share in the divine nature. We are still in bodies of flesh that tempt us to sin, but after the resurrection we will have incorruptible bodies that will not tempt us, so perhaps we will never sin.

Just have to wait till we get there.

 

How can anyone deny free will when God himself said men have free will?

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Why is this even a question? God himself said if ANY MAN among the Jews were to bring an offering to the LORD, that he was to bring it of HIS OWN VOLUNTARY WILL.

Now, that settles it for me. God himself said any man has free will.

And note that God said this offering shall be ACCEPTED TO MAKE ATONEMENT FOR HIM.

So much for total inability. :laugh:

 

The fundamental laws of logic also known as the laws of thought.

By necessity.

For example, If God can both do something and NOT do that something at the same time and in the same sense then nothing anybody ever says about anything matters at all.

It is the fact that God is logical that enables us to reason AT ALL.

If things can be and not be at the same time and in the same sense then anything that we can say about those things is meaningless.

God's promises are meaningless if the fundamental laws of logic do not apply.

God can promise something and do it and not do it at the same time in the same sense.

Nothing is at all meaningful, nothing is at all reasonable if the laws of logic do not apply.

 

Sure they can. They do it all the time. These discussions are fundamental to our understanding of anything.

God cannot create God. There are attributes of God which are his and his alone.

Theologians call these attributes the "incommunicable attributes."

I suppose every theologian in the history of the WORLD has addressed these things- as they SHOULD.

 

Did anyone read post 10.

I think all need to go back and read the what is man text in Heb 2.

Just what is God doing through his Son Jesus Christ relative to men?

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matt 19:26

John 3:7

What about John 17? Are we going to be one with him as Jesus is one whit him or not?

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. V21

 

I know that ALL LOGIC depends upon the fundamental laws of logic.

I know that discussing anything outside the bounds of those laws is utterly useless.

And yes, I know about the various forms of logic.

And, as I predicted, almost on cue... you get snotty.

 

Remarkably insightful response!

 

If you'll notice, since the OP, for three pages, all you have done is ask questions.

Make assertions every once in a while so we can interrogate your position.

Answering questions for three pages is wearisome for anybody.

But here goes one more time...

The Law of Identity

God cannot be the only being in the universe whose actions are uncaused and NOT be the only being in the universe whose actions are uncaused.

A completely dependent being cannot be independent.

There you go.

Now, explain to us how a created being that is totally dependent on the forces that make everything about him and sustain everything about him all the time can "cause his own decisions."

Explain to us how that works.

I'll be waiting with baited breath...

 

Precisely.

God's ability to make decisions or do ANYTHING independent upon anything but himself is an INCOMMUNICABLE ATTRIBUTE OF GOD.

It is, in a way, THE incommunicable attribute of God.

It is the essence of his identifying himself as "I am".

"I am of my own self. I do what I do based on myself. I depend on nothing or no one to guide me or enable me in any way to do what I do. I am self-existing. That is what I am that no one else is. This very attribute is how you know I am God."

It is the foundation of the very NAME of God.

A cannot be A and not be A.

God cannot BE the only being who is himself uncaused, whose actions are uncaused by anything outside of himself (independency) and NOT be the only being who is those things.

The Law of Identity

Not created TO BE...

Created DEPENDENT.

Creatures are dependent upon something outside of themselves for their very existence.

The only being who is totally independent in any way is named Jehovah.

It is no more my presumption that created beings are dependent being and that God alone is truly independent than it is my presumption that created beings are not almighty beings and God alone is truly almighty.

For WHAT, Skandelon, does man NOT depend upon God?

Name one thing that he does not depend upon God for.

Now, when you name that thing, explain how it came to be and why it is not like everything else in the universe which looks completely to God for its constant sustaining and existence.

 

Still waiting....

 

Yep,Skan's OP is a non-starter on that basis alone.

 

I agree with everything RM said above. And that's saying something since we differ on so much.

 

In full agreement with you here.

 

Reread it. The words UNDER the quote wherein you said "how so" are the answer to the query in the quote.

The will makes decisions based on what parts of the self?

The desires- where'd they come from?

The intelligence? How was it developed?

If the the reasons the will chose what it chose were not part of the will itself then the will was not independent when it chose what it chose.

I am very well aware of what "question begging" is.

I am not just begging the question concerning the dependence of the will- I am demonstrating how the dependence of the will is obvious.