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Impossible to Keep
- Thread starter DHK
- Start date
Let me repeat my last post:
Mark 2:27 is not a command.
Isaiah 66:23 is sometime in the future when we know not--the Millennial Kingdom, just after "Christ comes for the Jews," and "so then all Israel shall be saved."
You still haven't given an adequate answer. You just stray more and more off topic; away from the questions originally given to you that you really have no answer to.
The Sabbath, as a Jewish law, was given to the Jews (Ex.31) MAKES NO SENSE.
The Sabbath, as GOD'S law or GOD'S Sabbath, was given to the Jews (Ex.31).
<<a Jewish Law that the Jews are expected to keep>> is SENSELESS.
<<So what>> INDEED!
DHK, the Sabbath is for you a thorn in your side, admit it,
I got a 'soetdoring' thorn in my side the other day while I'm on warfirin -- 'rottegif'. It wasn't nice to see.
It isn't nice to watch you so desperate.
Only legalists, after all, demand laws from God for everything.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" - Is 66:23.
"The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
the Jews were part of "mankind" so hard to exclude them from that group.
1. Turns out -- you are a member of "mankind".
2. Turns out - the Sabbath was "MADE for Mankind" according to Christ.
3. Turns out - the Sabbath IS in the form of a command in Ex 20:8-11 -- I can't erase that part of the Bible for those who object to it. So no point in blaming me for it's existence.
I am just admitting to the obvious.
in Christ,
Bob
"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" - Is 66:23.
"The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
the Jews were part of "mankind" so hard to exclude them from that group.
1. Turns out -- you are a member of "mankind".
2. Turns out - the Sabbath was "MADE for Mankind" according to Christ.
3. Turns out - the Sabbath IS in the form of a command in Ex 20:8-11 -- I can't erase that part of the Bible for those who object to it. So no point in blaming me for it's existence.
I am just admitting to the obvious.
in Christ,
Bob
Out of context. It has nothing to do with anyone living today. It points to a future event that no one knows when it will occur. Your view of eschatology does not fit others and therefore this point is moot.Originally Posted by BobRyan
"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" - Is 66:23.
Was made for mankind is not a command. There is no command here fo0r Gentiles to presently keep the Sabbath.
Of course. That is the part of mankind to whom the Sabbath is given. Have you not studied Exodus 31? You should!
But I am not an Israelite to whom the Sabbath was given.
"Made for" is not a command "to keep." Really Bob, do you understand English or do you need it posted in other languages as well!
Exodus 20 was written to the Jew and only to the Jew, that is the nation of Israel. All other nine commands are repeated in the NT for the Gentile to keep; but not the Sabbath. Nowhere is there any command given for the Gentile to keep the Sabbath during this age. Yet you don't find that odd?
No, you are not. You are stating obvious SDA doctrine, which is not biblical doctrine at all!
That the Sabbath was not given for gentiles is an axioma debaters all over the board don't know the first principle of. The Sabbath was, never, given to unbelievers --- GET THAT STRAIGHT!
That the Sabbath is not 'commanded' in the NT, is another debacle for just about every informed, uninformed or misinformed ---last mentioned by far the majority.
The Sabbath is commanded in the New, Testament, like it never had been in the Old ---for everybody's information.
1) In all Christ's life;
2) Even in his death;
3) Supremely in his Resurrection;
4) In his fulfilling of the Promise the Holy Spirit in the life and writings of the New Testament elect---
---all which are UNPRECEDENTED in the Old Testament or Law of the Old Testament in which and by which the Sabbath as the Day of the Lord or Lord's Day had only been fore-seen, fore-heard, and promised and typified.
But "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" in its "God-given and therefore eschatological IMPERATIVE whole and wholeness"* CAME TO ITS RIGHT—WAS INSTITUTED—WAS MADE—and was ESTABLISHED forever—was CREATED: IN Jesus Christ ONLY: Who is: God: with us in the Christian era.
For a plain, unambiguous and incontrovertable ‘command’ // ‘commandment’ in the New Testament for the CHRISTIAN “People of God”, one could read Hebrews 4:4-10, especially verse 9, as an example.
* Lohmeyer's words
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Originally Posted by BobRyan
"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" - Is 66:23.
"The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
the Jews were part of "mankind" so hard to exclude them from that group.
1. Turns out -- you are a member of "mankind".
2. Turns out - the Sabbath was "MADE for Mankind" according to Christ.
3. Turns out - the Sabbath IS in the form of a command in Ex 20:8-11 -- I can't erase that part of the Bible for those who object to it. So no point in blaming me for it's existence.
I am just admitting to the obvious.
in Christ,
Bob
strange that NONE of the Apostles placed the Church back under the Sabbath, isn't it?
NO NT verses say that we are back under, so you must be heeding your false prophetess again!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Until you figure out that the Bible is telling the truth when it calls the Ten Commandments - the "Word of God" -- even in the NT.
Mark reports that Christ said that the Sabbath is "MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27.
And of course they affirm "God's Commandments" AND the WORD of God - in fact AS the Word of God.
[FONT="]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT="] –[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT="] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10
[/FONT][FONT="]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
What is worse for your speculation - is that John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.
[/FONT]1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3
I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.
Mark reports that Christ said that the Sabbath is "MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27.
And of course they affirm "God's Commandments" AND the WORD of God - in fact AS the Word of God.
[FONT="]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT="] –[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT="] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10
[/FONT][FONT="]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
What is worse for your speculation - is that John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.
[/FONT]1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3
I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.
Do you keep these commandments Bob? All of them? All the time?
Why are you preaching to others something you cannot do yourself?
You cannot even keep the Sabbath; something that is impossible for you to do, as has been demonstrated on this thread. You don't follow the laws that pertain to the Sabbath, only the SDA laws that are convenient for you to follow. That is hypocritical.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
[FONT="]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 because [/FONT][FONT="]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT="] for it [/FONT][FONT="]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT="], for it [/FONT][FONT="]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT="].
[/FONT][FONT="]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.
According to 1John 2:1 - when the saints do sin we have an Advocate with the Father.
According to Romans 6 - the saints do not "need to sin" we can choose to obey God.
Claiming to be "sinless" to never ever make a mistake is NOT the prequisite to choosing to obey the 2nd commandment - not worshipping images in church. Most evangelicals can figure that one out. But when it comes to other commandments - will then all sorts of excuses pop up.
Oh well....
No wonder well known sources like [/FONT]the following decided to abandon the idea of [FONT="]whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul. [/FONT] __________________
[FONT="]
in Christ,
Bob
[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 because [/FONT][FONT="]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT="] for it [/FONT][FONT="]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT="], for it [/FONT][FONT="]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT="].
[/FONT][FONT="]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.
According to 1John 2:1 - when the saints do sin we have an Advocate with the Father.
According to Romans 6 - the saints do not "need to sin" we can choose to obey God.
Claiming to be "sinless" to never ever make a mistake is NOT the prequisite to choosing to obey the 2nd commandment - not worshipping images in church. Most evangelicals can figure that one out. But when it comes to other commandments - will then all sorts of excuses pop up.
Oh well....
No wonder well known sources like [/FONT]the following decided to abandon the idea of [FONT="]whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul. [/FONT] __________________
[FONT="]
in Christ,
Bob
[/FONT]
Nowhere does the Bible teach one can lose your salvation.
This is your problem with your copy and paste method of posting; this four year old method of discussion. It adds nothing to the discussion. You can post scripture. So can my little grandson.
He can also make three and four word sentences "can lose salvation." That is the essence of what you said there. The Bible doesn't teach that. You just gave a reference or two and then claimed it did.
And according to Romans 7, Paul couldn't help but sin. He couldn't stop himself from sinning. Thus your theology is way off somewhere.
You break every one of the Ten Commandments including the 2nd one.
You probably won't admit to that but it is true.
There is no way that you keep the "Commandments of God."
You can post all the scripture you want, but you are human, and not God.
You break God's commandments. That is the reason that we humans (even after we are saved) need to "confess our sin" (1John 1:9), and yet those of us who are truly born again have not lost our salvation, for salvation is not of works, but by grace through faith.
james said to us that if we break ONE of the 10 Commandments, to God we broke them all, so when did you attain your state of sinless perfection?
From the number of recent discussions with Bob Ryan the Seventh-day Adventist involved one thing stands out like a sore finger:
That the Sabbath per se is no 'pillar' of SDA doctrine or belief.
FREE WILL IS!
And that, they in no way or form or system or doctrine including their 'Investigating Judgment' entertain or possess as a peculiarity, BUT SHARE with anti-Grace-alone Christianity. They only though are the custodians of the perfection of the free-will heresy in their Investigative Judgment HERESY.
The TRAGEDY is that the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD became the property and exclusive right as it were of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
Greater tragedy happened when all five hundred and more other Sabbatharian churches arrayed themselves alongside the Seventh-day Adventists church WITH THE JEWS who believe the Sabbath FOR NO REASON THAN THE LAW, and refused to hear of a Redemption-based and -launched "FEAST-OF SABBATHS" IN CHRIST'S TRIUMPH over death and the grave THROUGH RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.
I am afraid there is NO REMEDY for the sickness.
Or does God have something in store for his Elect in this regard?
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The logical fallacy of "either or" was never one that i bought in to.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT="]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 because [/FONT][FONT="]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT="] for it [/FONT][FONT="]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT="], for it [/FONT][FONT="]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT="].
[/FONT][FONT="]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.
According to 1John 2:1 - when the saints do sin we have an Advocate with the Father.
According to Romans 6 - the saints do not "need to sin" we can choose to obey God.
Claiming to be "sinless" to never ever make a mistake is NOT the prequisite to choosing to obey the 2nd commandment - not worshipping images in church. Most evangelicals can figure that one out. But when it comes to other commandments - will then all sorts of excuses pop up.
Oh well....
No wonder well known sources like [/FONT]the following decided to abandon the idea of [FONT="]whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.
============================================
And the much-expected straw-man response??[/FONT]
Interesting straw-man
But as every Evangelical knows that points out that the second commandment must be kept - the Catholic straw-man that insists that evangelicals must be sinlessly perfect before holding Catholics accountable - to keeping the Second Commandment - that is a straw-man hollow dodge that simply does not work.
So then why should (some) evangelicals claim to be so befuddled on this point now?
Answer: "dead silence" --- crickets...
in Christ,
Bob
[FONT="]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 because [/FONT][FONT="]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT="] for it [/FONT][FONT="]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT="], for it [/FONT][FONT="]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT="].
[/FONT][FONT="]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.
According to 1John 2:1 - when the saints do sin we have an Advocate with the Father.
According to Romans 6 - the saints do not "need to sin" we can choose to obey God.
Claiming to be "sinless" to never ever make a mistake is NOT the prequisite to choosing to obey the 2nd commandment - not worshipping images in church. Most evangelicals can figure that one out. But when it comes to other commandments - will then all sorts of excuses pop up.
Oh well....
No wonder well known sources like [/FONT]the following decided to abandon the idea of [FONT="]whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.
============================================
And the much-expected straw-man response??[/FONT]
Interesting straw-man
But as every Evangelical knows that points out that the second commandment must be kept - the Catholic straw-man that insists that evangelicals must be sinlessly perfect before holding Catholics accountable - to keeping the Second Commandment - that is a straw-man hollow dodge that simply does not work.
So then why should (some) evangelicals claim to be so befuddled on this point now?
Answer: "dead silence" --- crickets...
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Romans 7 Paul introduces the problem that is solved in Romans 8.
Your war against the Ten Commandments -- is not too hard to discover.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The bottom line is that some are opposed to the Bible statements on the Commandments of God.
[FONT="]
Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 because [/FONT][FONT="]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT="] for it [/FONT][FONT="]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT="], for it [/FONT][FONT="]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT="].
[/FONT][FONT="]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 because [/FONT][FONT="]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT="] for it [/FONT][FONT="]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT="], for it [/FONT][FONT="]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT="],[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT="].
[/FONT][FONT="]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]
I believe DHK had a good investigative question for you Bob, so we may understand how YOU keep yourself saved according to your preaching of how others must keep themselves saved.....