When you simply quote confessions and related material that has nothing to do with the context of 1Cor.7:19, it is no wonder you have no clue you don't know what you are talking about. Genesis 2 and Exodus 20 don't comment on 1Cor.7:18,19. You are a very confused man.
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Ten Commandments Keep them or break them?
- Thread starter BobRyan
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
To DHK
Sadly the context fully sinks your any-ol-excuse-will-do solution.
The immediate context is Jew-vs-Gentile not "getting married to someone who is circumcised" as you seem to want to bend the entire chapter to being "All about marriage and ignore all other details".
1Cor 7 vs 18-20 is all about the contrast between the ceremonial law and the Moral Law of God - the Commandments of God - the TEN Commandments included.
1Cor 7
18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.
No wonder your own sunday-keeping Baptist sources ADMIT to this distinction between the Moral law of God continued -and the ceremonial laws now ended. If even your own fellow Baptists do not follow the any-old-excuse-will-do solution you are proposing - how much less should a non-Baptist??
So then the "Baptist Confession of Faith" says.
[FONT="]Section 19
. The Law of God [/FONT]
A+ on your papal pronouncement.
Not-so-high though on actual Bible exegesis.
Even your own Baptist sources admit to the distinction between ceremonial law and moral law - as we see in 1Cor 7:19. If even your own fellow Baptists refute your any-old-excuse-will-do solution, how much more so a non-Baptist such as myself??
In this case the "related material" is 1Cor 7.
I am just pointing out that even your own sunday-keeping Baptist sources don't go with the same "any ol excuse will do" solution you are suggesting.
How much less then would a non-Baptist like me fall for it.
They all comment on the "Commandments of God" even your own Baptist sources admit to this in places like Gen 2.
If even they can see the light in Genesis 2 - who am I to claim darkness - after all they are Sunday-keeping Baptist sources.
And as noted above in the "Bible details" in 1Cor 7 that you are ignoring - the issue was between ceremonial laws now ended and the Moral Law of God "The Commandments of God" - that even the Baptist Confession of Faith "admits" - continues on to this very day from OT times.
But when we consider the "Bible details" regarding the TEN Commandments as the "Commandments of God" in scripture - who can blame those sunday-keeping Baptist sources for admitting to this key Bible doctrine?
================== take a look for yourself.
[FONT="]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT="] –[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT="] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10
[/FONT][FONT="]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT="]
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
What is worse for your speculation - is that John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.
[/FONT] 1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3
in Christ,
Bob
To DHK Sadly the context fully sinks your any-ol-excuse-will-do solution.
The immediate context is Jew-vs-Gentile not "getting married to someone who is circumcised" as you seem to want to bend the entire chapter to being "All about marriage and ignore all other details".
1Cor 7 vs 18-20 is all about the contrast between the ceremonial law and the Moral Law of God - the Commandments of God - the TEN Commandments included.
1Cor 7
18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.
No wonder your own sunday-keeping Baptist sources ADMIT to this distinction between the Moral law of God continued -and the ceremonial laws now ended. If even your own fellow Baptists do not follow the any-old-excuse-will-do solution you are proposing - how much less should a non-Baptist??
So then the "Baptist Confession of Faith" says.
[FONT="]Section 19
. The Law of God [/FONT]
- [FONT="]God gave to Adam a law[/FONT][FONT="] of universal obedience which was written in his heart[/FONT][FONT="], and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
- [FONT="]The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial lawswere appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]
- [FONT="]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]
A+ on your papal pronouncement.
Not-so-high though on actual Bible exegesis.
Even your own Baptist sources admit to the distinction between ceremonial law and moral law - as we see in 1Cor 7:19. If even your own fellow Baptists refute your any-old-excuse-will-do solution, how much more so a non-Baptist such as myself??
In this case the "related material" is 1Cor 7.
I am just pointing out that even your own sunday-keeping Baptist sources don't go with the same "any ol excuse will do" solution you are suggesting.
How much less then would a non-Baptist like me fall for it.
DHK said:
They all comment on the "Commandments of God" even your own Baptist sources admit to this in places like Gen 2.
If even they can see the light in Genesis 2 - who am I to claim darkness - after all they are Sunday-keeping Baptist sources.
And as noted above in the "Bible details" in 1Cor 7 that you are ignoring - the issue was between ceremonial laws now ended and the Moral Law of God "The Commandments of God" - that even the Baptist Confession of Faith "admits" - continues on to this very day from OT times.
But when we consider the "Bible details" regarding the TEN Commandments as the "Commandments of God" in scripture - who can blame those sunday-keeping Baptist sources for admitting to this key Bible doctrine?
================== take a look for yourself.
[FONT="]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT="] –[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT="]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT="] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10
[/FONT][FONT="]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT="]
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
What is worse for your speculation - is that John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.
[/FONT] 1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Having posted that - I freely admit that the "any ol excuse will do" solution for ignoring the "Commandments of God" may well consider the texts posted over and over again on this subject to be "so many Bible details to be ignored".
Ok well I know that not everyone will agree with me.
Ok well I know that not everyone will agree with me.
You can post all you want Bob. But the chapter has to do with marriage and the problems surrounding marriage. As long as you ignore that fact all your posting is in vain. Posting out of context is a mere pretext. It proves nothing whatsoever.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So many "bible details" for you to ignore DHK? So little time?
Many subjects are addressed in 1Cor 7. Sadly for your view the subject of the Moral Law of God "The Commandments of God" is contrasted to the ceremonial law in 1Cor 7:18-20 in such a way that you cannot even bring yourself to quote the full 3 verse context.
How sad for your speculation on the text at that point.
Certainly you have free will to ignore these key "Bible Details" when it comes to 1Cor 7:19 -- ignoring the entire 3 verse set of vs 18-20... but do not expect that the rest of us will. In fact do not even expect that your own sunday keeping Baptist Confession of Faith will swallow join you out on that limb of desperate "Bible detail avoidance" of the immediate 3 verse context for 1Cor 7:19.
If your own Sunday-keeping Baptist sources find flaw in your methods - how much more would a NON-Baptist like me not be inclined to such Bible-avoidance methods.
It does not get any easier than this.
in Christ,
Bob
Many subjects are addressed in 1Cor 7. Sadly for your view the subject of the Moral Law of God "The Commandments of God" is contrasted to the ceremonial law in 1Cor 7:18-20 in such a way that you cannot even bring yourself to quote the full 3 verse context.
How sad for your speculation on the text at that point.
Certainly you have free will to ignore these key "Bible Details" when it comes to 1Cor 7:19 -- ignoring the entire 3 verse set of vs 18-20... but do not expect that the rest of us will. In fact do not even expect that your own sunday keeping Baptist Confession of Faith will swallow join you out on that limb of desperate "Bible detail avoidance" of the immediate 3 verse context for 1Cor 7:19.
If your own Sunday-keeping Baptist sources find flaw in your methods - how much more would a NON-Baptist like me not be inclined to such Bible-avoidance methods.
It does not get any easier than this.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
When Catholics argue that the 2nd Commandment against images in church is "impossible to keep" well they have a partner in DHK's view of the 4th Commandment.
But what is the Bible view on this determined rebellion against the Law of God, the Word of God as Christ calls it in Mark 7:13??
===========================
What IS sin according to the NT Word of God?
1John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
How does the saint view that Law according to Paul?
"what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19
"do we then make void the Law of God? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
"
8 For finding fault with them, He says,“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
...
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
How does this Law of God relate to Love for God and Love for one another?
1 John 5:1-4
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Does not Grace - free us from the issue of sin and rebellion against God's law so that we need not worry about it ? Can we marry rebellion and Grace together?
Romans 6
7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20:7 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
Rev 14:12 the 'Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Rom 2:13-16 "It is NOT the hearers of the law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justiFIED ... on the day when according to my Gospel God will Judge"
Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father"
What about the one who "says" that the Commandments of God are impossible to keep -- who are they?
Romans 8
the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
But what is the Bible view on this determined rebellion against the Law of God, the Word of God as Christ calls it in Mark 7:13??
===========================
What IS sin according to the NT Word of God?
1John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
How does the saint view that Law according to Paul?
"what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19
"do we then make void the Law of God? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
"
8 For finding fault with them, He says,“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
...
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
How does this Law of God relate to Love for God and Love for one another?
1 John 5:1-4
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Does not Grace - free us from the issue of sin and rebellion against God's law so that we need not worry about it ? Can we marry rebellion and Grace together?
Romans 6
7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20:7 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
Rev 14:12 the 'Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Rom 2:13-16 "It is NOT the hearers of the law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justiFIED ... on the day when according to my Gospel God will Judge"
Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father"
What about the one who "says" that the Commandments of God are impossible to keep -- who are they?
Romans 8
the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
I'm sorry Bob, but you always stop short in Romans 6:16 and misrepresent what it is really saying. You can't simply stop at verse 16;
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
If you stop short at verse 16, it appears as though you have a valid argument. But Paul did not stop speaking at verse 16, read on...
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Paul is not speaking about performance in this passage, he is speaking of "position", he is speaking of "ownership".
We "were" the servants of sin. We were just like a slave that was bought in the market. We belonged to sin, sin was our master. And the wage of sin is death, that is what sin pays his servants.
But the next phrase says we have now "obeyed" (past tense) from the heart that form of doctrine delivered us. This of course is speaking of the gospel.
Verse 18 then says, "Being then" referring back to obeying or believing the gospel "made free from sin", ye "became the servants of righteousness".
The moment you believe the gospel you no longer belong to sin, you are not sin's servant anymore. You are no longer sin's "possession". This is what Paul is showing here.
Now we belong to righteousness, or more precisely, we belong to Jesus Christ himself. He has bought us with his blood, he has redeemed us, and now we are his possession.
And while Jesus does not pay us a wage, because a wage is earned, Jesus does give us the free gift of eternal life.
So, this passage is not saying what you are trying to make it say. We no longer belong to sin, sin has no more power or dominion over us.
We now belong to Jesus Christ as summarized in verse 22.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Romans 6
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20:7 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
Rev 14:12 the 'Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Is it "mirepresenting" to give the verbatim quotes of Romans 6:7-16? Where find the details that speak to obedience? really??
Is it better to do as you have done? Skip vs 7-14 and begin with vs 15??
Not true at all. Because Paul says in the text you are carefully avoiding that he is speaking about what we do 'in the body".
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Even you admit to the Bible details here speaking to the deeds done in the body - the members of our body, and sin in real life such that even you say my case is made here.
Then you point to vs 17-23 as if they cancel or negate the first half of the chapter instead of adding to it.
I agree that if you carefully avoid all the details that speak of the "members of your body" and sin in "real life" -- that you could at least come to a sort of magic-accounting "not what I am doing just what I am thinking" or something of the sort.
But the "real life doing" language is unavoidably being used in vs 1-16 - and it cannot be so easily avoided.
in Christ,
Bob
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20:7 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
Rev 14:12 the 'Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Is it "mirepresenting" to give the verbatim quotes of Romans 6:7-16? Where find the details that speak to obedience? really??
Is it better to do as you have done? Skip vs 7-14 and begin with vs 15??
Not true at all. Because Paul says in the text you are carefully avoiding that he is speaking about what we do 'in the body".
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Even you admit to the Bible details here speaking to the deeds done in the body - the members of our body, and sin in real life such that even you say my case is made here.
Then you point to vs 17-23 as if they cancel or negate the first half of the chapter instead of adding to it.
I agree that if you carefully avoid all the details that speak of the "members of your body" and sin in "real life" -- that you could at least come to a sort of magic-accounting "not what I am doing just what I am thinking" or something of the sort.
But the "real life doing" language is unavoidably being used in vs 1-16 - and it cannot be so easily avoided.
in Christ,
Bob
Yes Bob, you are misrepresenting what Romans 6 is really saying.
Paul is absolutely telling us not to sin, but he is not saying a man is saved by works as you portray.
The moment you believe the gospel you no longer belong to sin as his servant. He has no power or dominion over you regardless of how you perform.
You now belong to Jesus Christ and are his servant. He bought you with his blood and you belong to him. His gift to you is eternal life. If you sin, you will not receive rewards, but nevertheless you will be saved.
I'm sorry, but you are absolutely misrepresenting what Paul is really saying in Romans 6.
Paul is absolutely telling us not to sin, but he is not saying a man is saved by works as you portray.
The moment you believe the gospel you no longer belong to sin as his servant. He has no power or dominion over you regardless of how you perform.
You now belong to Jesus Christ and are his servant. He bought you with his blood and you belong to him. His gift to you is eternal life. If you sin, you will not receive rewards, but nevertheless you will be saved.
I'm sorry, but you are absolutely misrepresenting what Paul is really saying in Romans 6.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
Doesn't get any more simple than that.
Doesn't get any more simple than that.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Christ paid the sin debt that His own law demands (Is 53:10, 1John 2:2) - He did not wipe out the Law of God.
The Law says - "The wages of sin is death" Rom 2:23.
Our debt of sin is to be paid at the second death (not the first death).
That debt is paid by Christ - our "certificate of DEBT" paid for - and nailed to the Cross.
Hence -
Colossians 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. NASB
Just when our Catholic friends may have hoped the 2nd commandment against using images in worship - was "nailed to the cross" -- it turns out that it is our DEBT of sin - our debt for being in rebellion that is nailed to the cross.
in Christ,
Bob
The Law says - "The wages of sin is death" Rom 2:23.
Our debt of sin is to be paid at the second death (not the first death).
That debt is paid by Christ - our "certificate of DEBT" paid for - and nailed to the Cross.
Hence -
Colossians 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. NASB
Just when our Catholic friends may have hoped the 2nd commandment against using images in worship - was "nailed to the cross" -- it turns out that it is our DEBT of sin - our debt for being in rebellion that is nailed to the cross.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
In vs 1-16 what we do not see "in the text" is "no matter how much you in fact -sin... sin is not master over you" as you have speculated.
By direct contrast we find this
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
...
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
The contradiction of the text would be in the form "no matter if you obey sin or not - you are not the slave of sin...you are not the slave of the one whom you actually obey"
in Christ,
Bob
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
In vs 1-16 what we do not see "in the text" is "no matter how much you in fact -sin... sin is not master over you" as you have speculated.
By direct contrast we find this
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
...
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
The contradiction of the text would be in the form "no matter if you obey sin or not - you are not the slave of sin...you are not the slave of the one whom you actually obey"
in Christ,
Bob
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Then you should read verse 14 very slowly, because it says sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the law but under grace.
As I said earlier, Paul is not speaking of performance here, but our position. The moment you believe the gospel you no longer belong to sin, he is no longer your master. Jesus now owns you and he is your master. This is speaking of ownership.
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No Bob, that's not what it says. And what do your Catholic friends have to do with this?
Ordinances:
dogma dog'-mah
from the base of 1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):--decree, ordinance.
He nailed the Law to His cross showing He had fulfilled it.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Indeed. you are the slave of the one you obey - you need not obey sin. You are free from the slavery of obeying sin since you are not under law but under grace.
However in true free will fashion - if you choose to obey sin anyway - then you have missed the Romans 6 point that you ARE the slave of the one you obey.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
There is no "position in the members of your body" spoken of in Romans 6.
Rather it is "sin" or "obedience" that is shown "in the members of your body" in Romans 6.
And Paul argues against the idea that what is done "in the members of your body" in terms of "obeying sin" - means nothing at all because of some esoteric "position" idea you may be thinking of while sinning.
Paul is explicit that the deeds done in the body - show the slavery of the person.
And he specifically addresses the "let us sin without concern since we are not under Law but under Grace" - by pointing to "the details" that even when under GRACE - you are STILL demonstrating that "you are slaves of the one that you obey".
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
What Paul does not say in Romans 6 is "it does not matter if we sin - for we are not under law but under grace".
What Paul does not say in Romans 6 is "we are not under law but under grace - so we are not the slaves of the one we obey - either of sin resulting in death - or the slave of righteousness".
In other words - the details in the chapter do not support these exact negations of the text.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Very often Protestants/evangelicals etc fully "understand" why the Catholics needs to "obey" the 2nd commandment about not having images in worship - but then "get confused" when other commandments come up.
Since the evangelicals have such "clarity" on the 2nd commandment - like reminding them of what they are doing when they try to throw God's TEN Commandments under a bus.
Fortunately we have sunday-keeping Baptist sources like the "Baptist Confession of Faith" that affirms the Law of God, the TEN Commandments binding on all mankind from Eden to this very day.
Christ paid the sin debt that His own law demands (Is 53:10, 1John 2:2) - He did not wipe out the Law of God.
The Law says - "The wages of sin is death" Rom 2:23.
Our debt of sin is to be paid at the second death (not the first death).
That debt is paid by Christ - our "certificate of DEBT" paid for - and nailed to the Cross.
Hence -
Colossians 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. NASB
1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
in Christ,
Bob
Yes, the moment you sin, you sell yourself to sin and belong to him. He is now your master, and the wage he pays his servants is death.
But the moment you trust Christ you die to sin WITH Jesus. You are no longer held and bound by sin as your master. Now Jesus owns you and is your master, and his gift is eternal life.
Paul uses many analogies here, one is of marriage, Paul shows how a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives, but the moment he dies she is free to marry another, and is no adulteress.
When you trust Christ, again you are baptized with him into his death. You have died, you are no longer married to sin, and now you are free to be married to Jesus. You now belong to Jesus.
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
You are just not getting it Bob, it is not about performance, it is about position, it is about ownership.
You could be married to a woman and she dies. Now you are free to marry another woman. But suppose you are not faithful to your second wife and cheat on her, does this mean you are not still married to your second wife? NO, you are still married to your second wife, even if you are unfaithful to her.
So, you are missing the concept that Paul is teaching altogether, and this is causing you to err.
You are now married to Jesus whether you are faithful to him or not. You ought to be faithful, and this is what Paul is saying, but you are still married to Jesus whether you are faithful or not.
I am not saved because I am always faithful to Jesus, I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me. Amen!
And like marriage, salvation is a one time event, you don't get married to your wife over and over and over again.
But the moment you trust Christ you die to sin WITH Jesus. You are no longer held and bound by sin as your master. Now Jesus owns you and is your master, and his gift is eternal life.
Paul uses many analogies here, one is of marriage, Paul shows how a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives, but the moment he dies she is free to marry another, and is no adulteress.
When you trust Christ, again you are baptized with him into his death. You have died, you are no longer married to sin, and now you are free to be married to Jesus. You now belong to Jesus.
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
You are just not getting it Bob, it is not about performance, it is about position, it is about ownership.
You could be married to a woman and she dies. Now you are free to marry another woman. But suppose you are not faithful to your second wife and cheat on her, does this mean you are not still married to your second wife? NO, you are still married to your second wife, even if you are unfaithful to her.
So, you are missing the concept that Paul is teaching altogether, and this is causing you to err.
You are now married to Jesus whether you are faithful to him or not. You ought to be faithful, and this is what Paul is saying, but you are still married to Jesus whether you are faithful or not.
I am not saved because I am always faithful to Jesus, I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me. Amen!
And like marriage, salvation is a one time event, you don't get married to your wife over and over and over again.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You are addressing the case of one NOT under grace.
But in Romans 6 Paul does address the case of the one who IS under grace and not under law - and yet chooses bondage to sin.
Paul speaks to it here - Paul presents BOTH groups who are under grace and not under law. BOTH the ones who DO then choose to serve sin under that condition - and the ones who do not.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
You are not addressing that part of Romans 6 with any of the actual quotes in Romans 6 that speak to that scenario.
But that part of Romans 6 needs to be accepted.
in Christ,
Bob.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Indeed - Romans 7:1-4 begins with the context of one who is lost getting saved.
I never argue against the fact that the lost person is taken from being lost - to being saved in Rom 7:1-4.
In Romans 6 Paul is dealing with the saved person in vs 7-16 and the two choices that they have.
in Christ,
Bob
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