thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
AFTER the thousand year reign.
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Promises of Abraham, Physical or Spiritual?
- Thread starter TipofTheTongueTheology
- Start date
convicted1
Guest
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
convicted1
Guest
Go to Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 and find a 1,000 years between the judgements of the sheep and goats........
I meant that we are both beating our heads against a wall, trying to convince a dispie of clear Biblical truths. We're in full agreement.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Amen! But those passages don't negate God's promises to faithful Israel regarding the land, which He promised separately to Israel, and Israel alone, in a literal sense.
convicted1
Guest
The promise of God was to seed(Christ and His sheep) and not seeds(NT church{Christ being her Head}) and the nation Israel.....
convicted1
Guest
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
The reaping of the lost, then the save, then the destruction of the universe will all happen on the same day. Besides, dispie doctrine has it backwards; the saved taken first, then the lost. How will the sheep be judged first when the goats are reaped out first? Matthew 25 says that all nations will gathered before him, at once, before he separates us for judgement. This is a judgement of all people which occurs after EVERYONE has been reaped from the earth. Jesus is very clear on these points.
Peter tells believers to be looking for the coming Day of the Lord. Why would he tell them this if all Christians have been "raptured" out 1,000yrs prior? Peter is telling every believer who would read his epistle, that we are to look for that day. Please think through these doctrines before believing them. We are awaiting His Return; not a super secret return for a few, but His final return when He will reap the earth of all her inhabitants & create a new heaven & earth.
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matthew 13:37-43)
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (Matthew 25:31-33)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Peter 3:10-13)
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convicted1
Guest
Bingo!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
In Matthew 25, after He gives the sheep their reward, He then say this, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels": Now, if there are a literal 1,007 years betwixt the two resurrections(Church raptured and deceased believers caught up into the cloud{1 Thess. 4}, then 3.5 years of trib and then 3.5 years of great trib, then the battle of Armegeddon, and subsequent 1,000 year reign of Christ here on earth), how come He renders the goats their reward immediately after giving the sheep theirs? In Revelation 20, it states "both small and great shall be at the Great White Throne Judgement". So how can both stand before Him when there's this supposed 1,007 years between their resurrections?
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Certainly, but you're misinterpreting "Seed" in both instances. "Seed" refers only to Christ, not to the offspring of Abraham, nor the sheep of Christ. Moreover, you ignore the implications of the second giving of the Law, from which I didn't quote in either of those lengthier posts yesterday due to their size. However, it clearly states the land will be restored to Israel in a way that heretofore has not been seen.
Dueteronomy 30, NASB
5 "The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.
5 "The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.
God has not multiplied Israel to number more than their fathers since they left Egypt. This is an unfulfilled prophecy, and to claim it is negated or "fulfilled" is to make God a liar.
Additionally, Paul wrote to the Roman church, quoting Isaiah 59:20, that all Israel will be rendered "clean," and quite obviously that has not happened. It was a prophecy of Isaiah that, at Paul's writing, was unfulfilled, and it remains so to this day. Again, God is not a liar.
Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
I remind you of the obvious, that Christ is the Deliverer, and yet He had come, and this prophecy, to this day, remains unfulfilled. Therefore, it must be fulfilled in a day yet to be, as will the rest of the promises of the Abrahamic covenant. There are those on this thread who want to quote New Testament writings that the prophecies are fulfilled, and let their arguments rest on those passages. To the limited scope in which those prophecies are discussed in the New Testament, they are fulfilled. But these other passages render that limited view as being myopic to those specific circumstances, and point to larger parameters of these prophecies that must yet be granted.
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Learn to read the entire passage you are quoting. Once again, you ignore the second part of the covenant; the conditional IF part. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but God generally gives the negative conditions of the covenants after He gives the positive conditions. This would be so much easier if you'd start reading the entire passages.
"But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it." (Deuteronomy 30:17-18)
Explain who "all Israel" is. Every jew throughout time? Every jew who happens to be living in geopolitical Israel when Christ returns?
You've been shown before how that Paul gave us the answer:
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Romans 9:6-8)
convicted1
Guest
Look, "Seed" does refer to Christ, which is correct. But we are grafted into Christ, into that True Vine, the True Israel, which is Christ. We are dead, and our lives are hid with Christ in God. We, the inner man, are one with Christ. Jesus did state this, you know??
John 14:18-20
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
We are heir of God and joint heirs with Christ. The promise to the Seed we get when we are grafted into that True Vine, that True Israel, Jesus Christ, the promised Seed.....
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Heb 11:33-40
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again:and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword:they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
(KJV)
This applies directly to the OP, right?
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again:and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword:they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
(KJV)
This applies directly to the OP, right?
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
When you can show me how this and all the other "points" made on this thread negate my view, I'll gladly withdraw from it and say you are correct. But these verses do nothing to contravene the Abrahamic Covenant promise to faithful Israel to be fully restored to the land God gave them, a land they never fully possessed without conflict. You can talk about Paul's statements regarding how we are unified in faith all you want. It does not cancel, transfer, or otherwise change that promise in any way, shape or form. Paul knew this. Else he wouldn't have penned Romans 11:26.
I've shown my arguments plainly. None of you have even attempted to refute them, you have merely cherry-picked passages you mistakenly believe "prove" you correct. They don't. Scripture does not deny Scripture. It complements it. If you read the posts on this thread, glean the Scripture from them all, you will not find them in conflict, you will find them in harmony, proving the points I've made.
That above is true;
However: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:25
And then: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? Romans 11:24
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26,27
and as it is laid up to men once, to die and after this -- judgment, Heb 9:27 YLT An interesting verse to say the least. BTW I moved the comma.
When was it appointed for the Lamb of God, the Christ to die? Was the Christ going to be a man, the Son of the living God, as of a lamb without spot and without blemish?
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor. 15:22
Will judgement be between dying and being made alive or after being made alive? What does judgement mean is this context?
How many 'Israels' do you see here?:
.....For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel Rom 9:6
How many 'Jews' do you see here?:
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly...but he is a Jew who is one inwardly...Ro 2:28,29
How many 'circumcisions' do you see here?:
...neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh...circumcision is that of the heart....Ro 2:28.29
How many 'children' do you see here?:
...not the children of the flesh....the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.. Ro 9:8
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Does this 'faithful Israel' exist now? Is there, at the present time, a remnant of Jews outside of the visible Church that God considers to be 'faithful Israel'?
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Have you ever read Romans 9-11 without thinking it is written to individuals, and concentrating on its real addressee, Israel? There's your answer.
So, now you're saying that the epistle of Romans was not written to individual believers in Rome, but to the nation of Israel, & that we should ignore Paul's direct statements that true Israel is the spiritual seed of Abraham? Your gross misinterpretation of Scripture has reached a new level of self-delusion.
This# has been proven wrong from Scripture at every turn. Multiple references have been posted which directly refute the very foundations of his doctrine. The eternal nature of the land covenant: disproved. Believers taken out before the lost: disproved. Unconditional land covenant: disproved.
Since this# won't respond to the passages which disprove his beliefs, I'll list a few questions & see if he is willing to respond with specificity, instead of general "I'm right & you're wrong" statements:
How can the land promise be eternal when the earth is temporal? Is it "olam" (for ever) as Samuel served God "olam" in the temple?
What did Joshua mean when he said that the land promises were fulfilled?
What do you do with all the conditions, as recorded in Deuteronomy, Joshua, & Kings, that God put on the land covenant?
How will the sheep be judged first, when Jesus said the goats would be taken out first?
Explain who "all Israel" is. Every jew throughout time? Every jew who happens to be living in geopolitical Israel when Christ returns?
If only the fleshly descendants of Abraham inherit the promises, then why did Paul say that only the spiritual seed of Abraham, all believers, would inherit them?
Since this# won't respond to the passages which disprove his beliefs, I'll list a few questions & see if he is willing to respond with specificity, instead of general "I'm right & you're wrong" statements:
How can the land promise be eternal when the earth is temporal? Is it "olam" (for ever) as Samuel served God "olam" in the temple?
What did Joshua mean when he said that the land promises were fulfilled?
What do you do with all the conditions, as recorded in Deuteronomy, Joshua, & Kings, that God put on the land covenant?
How will the sheep be judged first, when Jesus said the goats would be taken out first?
Explain who "all Israel" is. Every jew throughout time? Every jew who happens to be living in geopolitical Israel when Christ returns?
If only the fleshly descendants of Abraham inherit the promises, then why did Paul say that only the spiritual seed of Abraham, all believers, would inherit them?