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Featured God's Lament vs Calvinism's gospel saboteur

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Dec 13, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Another perfect example where the Calvinist argument runs headlong into the texts in the OP as can only survive by ignoring them.

    That may be true in Calvinism but in the actual Bible Christ came to "Seek and save the lost" Luke 19:10 - almost everyone here (even some Calvinists) are hard pressed to oppose that Text.

    What is worse is that in the extreme position you are taking - you make a solution to the following texts - impossible for Calvinism.


    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

    [FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

    [FONT=&quot]================================

    [FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

    [FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    =======================

    You have claimed that this lament is impossible because only God controls that outcome and he cannot save the lost. He must first make them saved because in your own doctrine only the already saved saints - accept the gospel as if they were lost and needed it.
     
    #21 BobRyan, Jan 9, 2015
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is a great highlight on Spurgeon's view of a key doctrine in Calvinism - as we find it in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

    Clearly the statement above identified without question what Calvinism considers to be the determining element in all cases where one person is lost and another saved.


    But in so doing - Spurgeon is stuck at the point of making God the author of His own "lament".


     
    #22 BobRyan, Jan 10, 2015
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As we saw #22 this is the reason that does not work.

    Of course Calvinists will happily instruct God on just what must be done to "fix" His Lament.

    And they will happily instruct him on that point ... time after time. Because in the Calvinist fiction God's lament makes no sense at all. it describes a scenario that "cannot exist" in calvinism.

    Yet God is more than happy to contradict Calvinism like this --

    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #23 BobRyan, Jan 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2015
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    You keep appealing to OT passages to make a point on Salvation, thats not wise because under the OT God dealt with a Nation. Today, Jesus has made it clear that we should believe on Him through the Word of His Apostles under the New Covenant Jn 17:19-20

    19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

    The Holy Spirit taught the Apostles of Christ the meaning of OT scriptures so that they can communicate it to His Body the Church under the Nt economy Eph 4:5-13

    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

    8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    Now, the mandate is the Apostles Doctrine Acts 2:42

    42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

    Do you believe you have a better understanding of the OT scriptures than Christ's Apostles ?
     
    #24 savedbymercy, Jan 16, 2015
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is because my Bible has 66 books not just 27-4 ---> 23.

    And that is because the NT authors say that the OT "Scripture" is "inspired by God and to be used for doctrine" 2Tim 3:16.

    And you might want to read section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and/or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" before attacking scripture in service to Calvinism.

    Same God as in the NT.

    Same God that put Moses and Elijah on the Mt of transfiguration (not an entire nation) along with Christ in Matt 17 -- in the pre-cross era.

    Same God that said that if anyone attacks scripture they are doing wrong - Mark 7:6-13, Matt 5 (So then... the word of Jesus).

    The New Covenant quoted in Hebrews 8... is a quote of Jeremiah 31:31-33.

    From the God who said "I do not change".


    And Paul reminds us "There is only ONE Gospel" in all ages Gal 1:6-9 and "That Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

    Not to have them ignore them.

    Your "solution" is to toss your Bible out the window --- you need to rethink that solution.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #25 BobRyan, Jan 16, 2015
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    JESUS prayed for those who shall believe in Him through the word of The Apostles ! They were given wisdom on how to understand the Old Testament scriptures !
     
    #26 savedbymercy, Jan 16, 2015
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Pope claims the same thing.

    "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so" Acts 17:11. (As we love to remind our Catholic friends when it comes to "sola scriptura")

    This is non-Christians studying the OT "sola scriptura" to SEE IF the Apostle Paul was indeed telling the truth - because as Paul reminds us in 2Tim 3:16 the OT is for doctrine.

    Then you remind us that Calvinism is so devoted to proof-texting and scripture-avoidance that you must put 37 books of the Bible 'plus the 4 gospels' -- on "ignore"

    As atrocious as your solution is - I congratulate you on being the only Calvinist to come up with one when it comes to the "lament" problem found in the actual Bible.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #27 BobRyan, Jan 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2015
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    You sound foolish and disrespectful towards what Jesus stated about the word of His Apostles !
     
    #28 savedbymercy, Jan 16, 2015
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Bob...you keep repeating and copying your own posts over and over again, as if you have some memory loss...you forget you posted it 100 times already....

     
    #29 Iconoclast, Jan 16, 2015
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I believe Bob keeps repeating God's lament because you keep declaring it doesn't exist in the text. Maybe after the umpteenth time God will move upon you, opening your eyes that you may have space to repent and choose the obvious truth which most Christians clearly see. I think you probably block it out because you have swallowed the TULIP hook line and sinker and have given yourself no other choice but to defend it at even the expense of many passages of scripture which speaks out against TULIP.
     
    #30 steaver, Jan 16, 2015
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Steaver......do you believe the omniscient God ever needs to lament????


    13."Cheese should never be introduced into the stomach'' (Testimonies to the Church, Vol. 2, page 68).
    14."It is just as much sin to violate the laws of our being as to break one of the Ten Commandments'' ([eating a slice of bacon is as sinful as committing adultery] Testimonies to the Church, Vol. 2, page 70).
     
    #31 Iconoclast, Jan 16, 2015
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I believe God when He says CRYS OUT..........

    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
     
    #32 steaver, Jan 17, 2015
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You are using simple "harrumph!" to oppose Acts 17:11 - that is not a compelling argument.
     
    #33 BobRyan, Jan 17, 2015
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    your "need" to avoid the texts above -- is more than a little obvious.

    I think Calvinists genuinely "imagine to themselves" that nobody notices the bible-avoidance techniques they invent.

    That is more than a little sad.

    In any case - the Bible remains. Calvinism has no response other than SavedByMercy's question of why are we even reading these texts at all.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #34 BobRyan, Jan 17, 2015
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Receiving Christ is also to believe in or on Him, which pleases God, for Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 but them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 so they cannot receive Him as stated in Jn 1:12 !
     
    #35 savedbymercy, Jan 17, 2015
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    John 1:12 says nothing about "they cannot receive Him". Why are you abusing God's Word in that way??

    John1:12 - "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name".
     
    #36 steaver, Jan 17, 2015
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    How do Calvinists solve this problem of Calvinism making God the author of His own lament?

    1. Deny the texts exist

    2. Dig the whole deeper

    By nonsensically "digging the hole deeper" for themselves apparently.

    God sovereignly "selected" them as "His OWN" --

    "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:22

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]
     
    #37 BobRyan, Jan 17, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2015
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Very well said O" convicted1! Ryan is ignoring the context in which these verses are written. A parallel in the new Testament would be 1st John and certain parts of Hebrews! Of course Ryan believes one can lose their Salvation so ?????
     
    #38 OldRegular, Jan 17, 2015
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much average for a response to such a list of bible texts that Calvinists do not find "convenient" to study or deal with.

    Nothing new there.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #39 BobRyan, Jan 17, 2015
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Regarding -- #2

    He is grieved "in the text" because the Jews are "still saved no matter that they reject the Messiah"??

    Really??

    A "Christless Gospel" to prop up Calvinism???

    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.


    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]
    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]
     
    #40 BobRyan, Jan 17, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2015
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