God's Lament vs Calvinism's gospel saboteur

[savedbymercy]

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

How do Calvinists solve this problem of Calvinism making God the author of His own lament?

1. Deny the texts exist



2. Dig the whole deeper



By nonsensically "digging the hole deeper" for themselves apparently.

God sovereignly "selected" them as "His OWN" --

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:22

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

Receiving Christ is also to believe in or on Him, which pleases God, for Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 but them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 so they cannot receive Him as stated in Jn 1:12 !

 

[BobRyan]

Receiving Christ is also to believe in or on Him, which pleases God, for Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 but them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 so they cannot receive Him as stated in Jn 1:12 !

The fiction you suggest "digs the whole deeper" for Calvinism -- no hope of escape from the "Lament" problem found in the Bible for Calvinist when they bend the texts above as you choose to do - you "imagine" that God said "I only came to save those that please me" -- and in fact -- He never said that.

=============================

Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

How do Calvinists solve this problem of Calvinism making God the author of His own lament?

1. Deny the texts exist



2. Dig the whole deeper

 

[BobRyan]

Receiving Christ is also to believe in or on Him, which pleases God, for Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 but them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 so they cannot receive Him as stated in Jn 1:12 !

The fiction you suggest "digs the whole deeper" for Calvinism -- no hope of escape from the "Lament" problem found in the Bible for Calvinist when they bend the texts above as you choose to do - you "imagine" that God said "I only came to save those that please me" -- and in fact -- He never said that.

[FONT=&quot]The God of the Bible "came to seek and save the lost". Luke 19:10, Matt 18:11

“He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not” John1:11

“God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14[/FONT]

 

[savedbymercy]

The fiction you suggest "digs the whole deeper" for Calvinism -- no hope of escape from the "Lament" problem found in the Bible for Calvinist when they bend the texts above as you choose to do - you "imagine" that God said "I only came to save those that please me" -- and in fact -- He never said that.

[FONT=&quot]The God of the Bible "came to seek and save the lost". Luke 19:10, Matt 18:11

“He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not” John1:11

“God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14[/FONT]

Them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 and since Faith pleases God, Heb 11:6 those in the flesh, unregenerate cannot believe in Christ !

 

[convicted1]

Regarding -- #2



He is grieved "in the text" because the Jews are "still saved no matter that they reject the Messiah"??

Really??

A "Christless Gospel" to prop up Calvinism???

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]

 

[OldRegular]

O'convicted1

It will do no good to break that record. Ryan has many more, perhaps 49,999; that is unless some others have followed your example!

 

[BobRyan]

When Calvnists quote about a half dozen texts or so then mock the fact that they were posted just because Calvinists have no solution, you know they are in full-scale retreat mode and don't mind running over a few Bible texts on their way out.

 

[BobRyan]

Them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 and since Faith pleases God, Heb 11:6 those in the flesh, unregenerate cannot believe in Christ !

Hint: No text says "God only dies for those that please Him" --

We all know that by now.

Your texts only prove that while God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave - the lost state of the world did not "please" Him.

obviously..

 

[savedbymercy]

Hint: No text says "God only dies for those that please Him" --

We all know that by now.

Your texts only prove that while God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave - the lost state of the world did not "please" Him.

obviously..

Where have I said that Christ died only those that please Him ? Please show the quote !

 

[BobRyan]

Where have I said that Christ died only those that please Him ? Please show the quote !

Each time a text is quoted showing that God is out to "seek and save the lost" you come back with a text that implies you don't believe it since God is not pleased by wicked people.

Your conclusion is clearly contradicted by the presence of the texts to the contrary. Your entire case is based on inference because you actually have no text saying that God does not seek and save the lost -- you have to make it up via inference alone using a text that says God is not pleased with wickedness.

You are continually reminded that Arminians never claim God is pleased by wickedness or the wicked or those who are lost. He loves them "For God so loved the WORLD" and "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" - but is not pleased by what the lost do.

You are not engaging in the discussion except to circle back to "God is not pleased by the wicked so I get to make a bunch of stuff up about God not seeking and saving the lost as the Bible says".

And it is not at all clear that even your own Calvinist brethren are going for that.

 

[savedbymercy]

Each time a text is quoted showing that God is out to "seek and save the lost" you come back with a text that implies you don't believe it since God is not pleased by wicked people.

Your conclusion is clearly contradicted by the presence of the texts to the contrary. Your entire case is based on inference because you actually have no text saying that God does not seek and save the lost -- you have to make it up via inference alone using a text that says God is not pleased with wickedness.

You are continually reminded that Arminians never claim God is pleased by wickedness or the wicked or those who are lost. He loves them "For God so loved the WORLD" and "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" - but is not pleased by what the lost do.

You are not engaging in the discussion except to circle back to "God is not pleased by the wicked so I get to make a bunch of stuff up about God not seeking and saving the lost as the Bible says".

And it is not at all clear that even your own Calvinist brethren are going for that.

I am going to ask you one more time sir :

Where have I said that Christ died only for those that please Him ? Please show the quote !

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you for asking that question again - because I love posting this answer -- for the object unbiased readers.

=========================

Each time a text is quoted showing that God is out to "seek and save the lost" you come back with a text that implies you don't believe it since God is not pleased by wicked people.

Your conclusion is clearly contradicted by the presence of the texts to the contrary. Your entire case is based on inference because you actually have no text saying that God does not seek and save the lost -- you have to make it up via inference alone using a text that says God is not pleased with wickedness.

You are continually reminded that Arminians never claim God is pleased by wickedness or the wicked or those who are lost. He loves them "For God so loved the WORLD" and "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" - but is not pleased by what the lost do.

You are not engaging in the discussion except to circle back to "God is not pleased by the wicked so I get to make a bunch of stuff up about God not seeking and saving the lost as the Bible says".

And it is not at all clear that even your own Calvinist brethren are going for that.

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

How do Calvinists solve this problem of Calvinism making God the author of His own lament?

1. Deny the texts exist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Steaver......do you believe the omniscient God ever needs to lament????

2. Dig the whole deeper

Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbymercy
Receiving Christ is also to believe in or on Him, which pleases God, for Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 but them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 so they cannot receive Him as stated in Jn 1:12 !

By nonsensically "digging the hole deeper" for themselves apparently.

God sovereignly "selected" them as "His OWN" --

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:22

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

from your leader;
"He had practiced self-abuse...._

Nobody runs away from the Bible texts and pointed observations faster and with more creativity than you find with "some" Calvinists.

I grant your point on that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Christ came to seek and save the lost - Luke 19:10 and how does that salvation invitation go out??

"We BEG YOU on behalf of CHRIST - be reconciled TO God" 2Cor 5.

And according to what process - what sequence - is salvation obtained --


Rom 10:8-11
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”


Now THAT is the sort of free-will based process that creates the context for which this result "can happen"

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]

 

[Yeshua1]

Christ came to seek and save the lost - Luke 19:10 and how does that salvation invitation go out??

"We BEG YOU on behalf of CHRIST - be reconciled TO God" 2Cor 5.

And according to what process - what sequence - is salvation obtained --


Rom 10:8-11
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”


Now THAT is the sort of free-will based process that creates the context for which this result "can happen"

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]

God commands us to proclaim Jesus to all sinners, but only those whom the father draw to Him, and give ears to hear with can and will respond to the message!

 

[BobRyan]

God commands us to proclaim Jesus to all sinners, but only those whom the father draw to Him, and give ears to hear with can and will respond to the message!

So then... since God knows that as well... so He knows exactly how salvation works... He won't be making any Arminian statements such as --

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]

 

[Yeshua1]

So then... since God knows that as well... so He knows exactly how salvation works... He won't be making any Arminian statements such as --

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]

Jesus also stated that only those whom the father would give unto Him will be saved, and NONE of them shall ever get lost again, do you believe jesus?

 

[BobRyan]

These quotes deal with the case of those God actively works to save - and they they are not saved -- and so God's lament is seen to be the very thing that Calvinism does not "allow" since there is no basis for it in Calvinism.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice" ?

Would "changing the focus" -- rabbit-trailing be a "solution" for Calvinism?

 

[BobRyan]

I find that a number of threads opened recently circle back to the same failed positions in Calvinism that were shown to fall flat on this thread. Will illustrate the point in my next post.

 

[convicted1]

*****awww skip it*****