Featured God's Lament vs Calvinism's gospel saboteur

The fiction you suggest "digs the whole deeper" for Calvinism -- no hope of escape from the "Lament" problem found in the Bible for Calvinist when they bend the texts above as you choose to do - you "imagine" that God said "I only came to save those that please me" -- and in fact -- He never said that.

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Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

How do Calvinists solve this problem of Calvinism making God the author of His own lament?

1. Deny the texts exist



2. Dig the whole deeper

 

The fiction you suggest "digs the whole deeper" for Calvinism -- no hope of escape from the "Lament" problem found in the Bible for Calvinist when they bend the texts above as you choose to do - you "imagine" that God said "I only came to save those that please me" -- and in fact -- He never said that.

[FONT=&quot]The God of the Bible "came to seek and save the lost". Luke 19:10, Matt 18:11

“He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not” John1:11

“God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14[/FONT]

 

When Calvnists quote about a half dozen texts or so then mock the fact that they were posted just because Calvinists have no solution, you know they are in full-scale retreat mode and don't mind running over a few Bible texts on their way out.

 

Hint: No text says "God only dies for those that please Him" --

We all know that by now.

Your texts only prove that while God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave - the lost state of the world did not "please" Him.

obviously..

 

Each time a text is quoted showing that God is out to "seek and save the lost" you come back with a text that implies you don't believe it since God is not pleased by wicked people.

Your conclusion is clearly contradicted by the presence of the texts to the contrary. Your entire case is based on inference because you actually have no text saying that God does not seek and save the lost -- you have to make it up via inference alone using a text that says God is not pleased with wickedness.

You are continually reminded that Arminians never claim God is pleased by wickedness or the wicked or those who are lost. He loves them "For God so loved the WORLD" and "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" - but is not pleased by what the lost do.

You are not engaging in the discussion except to circle back to "God is not pleased by the wicked so I get to make a bunch of stuff up about God not seeking and saving the lost as the Bible says".

And it is not at all clear that even your own Calvinist brethren are going for that.

 

Thank you for asking that question again - because I love posting this answer -- for the object unbiased readers.

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Nobody runs away from the Bible texts and pointed observations faster and with more creativity than you find with "some" Calvinists.

I grant your point on that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Christ came to seek and save the lost - Luke 19:10 and how does that salvation invitation go out??

"We BEG YOU on behalf of CHRIST - be reconciled TO God" 2Cor 5.

And according to what process - what sequence - is salvation obtained --


Rom 10:8-11
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”


Now THAT is the sort of free-will based process that creates the context for which this result "can happen"

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]

 

So then... since God knows that as well... so He knows exactly how salvation works... He won't be making any Arminian statements such as --

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]

 

These quotes deal with the case of those God actively works to save - and they they are not saved -- and so God's lament is seen to be the very thing that Calvinism does not "allow" since there is no basis for it in Calvinism.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice" ?

Would "changing the focus" -- rabbit-trailing be a "solution" for Calvinism?

 

I find that a number of threads opened recently circle back to the same failed positions in Calvinism that were shown to fall flat on this thread. Will illustrate the point in my next post.