God's Lament vs Calvinism's gospel saboteur

[BobRyan]

Another perfect example where the Calvinist argument runs headlong into the texts in the OP as can only survive by ignoring them.

The word hid in 2 Cor 4:3 it's in the perfect tense, meaning that it is a finished completed act once and for all in the past with results in the present, so the Gospel is permanently being hid from them the lost here, they have no choice but to be blinded !

That may be true in Calvinism but in the actual Bible Christ came to "Seek and save the lost" Luke 19:10 - almost everyone here (even some Calvinists) are hard pressed to oppose that Text.

What is worse is that in the extreme position you are taking - you make a solution to the following texts - impossible for Calvinism.


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

You have claimed that this lament is impossible because only God controls that outcome and he cannot save the lost. He must first make them saved because in your own doctrine only the already saved saints - accept the gospel as if they were lost and needed it.

 

[BobRyan]

This is a great highlight on Spurgeon's view of a key doctrine in Calvinism - as we find it in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

4. Others are not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may experience some common operations of the Spirit, yet because they are not effectually drawn by the Father, they will not and cannot truly come to Christ and therefore cannot be saved. Much less can men who do not embrace the Christian religion be saved, however diligent they may be to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the requirements of the religion they profess.

Clearly the statement above identified without question what Calvinism considers to be the determining element in all cases where one person is lost and another saved.


But in so doing - Spurgeon is stuck at the point of making God the author of His own "lament".

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

You have claimed that this lament is impossible because only God controls that outcome and he cannot save the lost. He must first make them saved because in your own doctrine only the already saved saints - accept the gospel as if they were lost and needed it.

 

[BobRyan]

The honest and consistent sermon should include

Quote:
Nothing I say and nothing you choose this evening will make any difference at all in the outcome, in your salvation or your eternal doom forsaken of God. You and I have no control at all over that.

Let's all just be seated for the rest of the meeting - and in silence watch to see what God is sovereignly going to do.

20 minute pause ...

Dismissed.

Every Calvinist on the planet could get up that sort of simple format and sermon. And if that actually worked in real life ... We should see Calvinist evangelism exploding in great numbers all over the world!!

As we saw #22 this is the reason that does not work.

Of course Calvinists will happily instruct God on just what must be done to "fix" His Lament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by convicted1

The non-elect, the goats, they gladly go to hell. You witness to people, and if God isn't working within them, they want nothing to do with you. They are happy, content in their sinful lifestyle(s). Unless God changes their will, their 'want to', they will never desire to find that strait and narrow gate.

And they will happily instruct him on that point ... time after time. Because in the Calvinist fiction God's lament makes no sense at all. it describes a scenario that "cannot exist" in calvinism.

Yet God is more than happy to contradict Calvinism like this --

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

[FONT=&quot]God's Lament
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Calvinism's cause/reason for the Lament:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Calvinism responds to God’s Lament “Why will you die” with an extreme form of ‘inference” that it pours into Deut 5:59. Instead of the obvious cause[/FONT]à[FONT=&quot] effect. Israel chooses faithfulness to God – and God responds with blessing and protection. Calvinism “infers” that it is GOD who is causing Israel to sabotage his plans for them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Now Deut 5:29 -- 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!.

In reality we all know God's lament is not about "himself" being saboteur of his own plans, or about Himself forgetting to provide the necessary means. Nobody can doubt that. But here Calvinism has the ultimate doctrine-by-inference to refute the common sense reading of the texts.

[/FONT]By contrast: God's "Appeal" and Lament

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about. If the result is wrong then Calvinism argues He did wrong - sabotaging His own plans or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The elephant in Calvinism’s living room is that they make God the saboteur of His own Gospel plans for life and salvation – the cause of His own lament
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]– like a house wife with a broom lamenting as she stares at a pile of dirt that is not swept clean, crying out “what more could I have done!! Why are you still just sitting there unswept??”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It appears to those watching Calvinism making such claims - that it is all counter intuitive - counter to the Word of God and based solely on incorrect "inferences" inserted into a text here or there.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]in Christ,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Bob
[/FONT]

You keep appealing to OT passages to make a point on Salvation, thats not wise because under the OT God dealt with a Nation. Today, Jesus has made it clear that we should believe on Him through the Word of His Apostles under the New Covenant Jn 17:19-20

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

The Holy Spirit taught the Apostles of Christ the meaning of OT scriptures so that they can communicate it to His Body the Church under the Nt economy Eph 4:5-13

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Now, the mandate is the Apostles Doctrine Acts 2:42

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Do you believe you have a better understanding of the OT scriptures than Christ's Apostles ?

 

[BobRyan]

You keep appealing to OT passages to make a point on Salvation,

That is because my Bible has 66 books not just 27-4 ---> 23.

And that is because the NT authors say that the OT "Scripture" is "inspired by God and to be used for doctrine" 2Tim 3:16.

And you might want to read section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and/or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" before attacking scripture in service to Calvinism.

thats not wise because under the OT God dealt with a Nation.

Same God as in the NT.

Same God that put Moses and Elijah on the Mt of transfiguration (not an entire nation) along with Christ in Matt 17 -- in the pre-cross era.

Same God that said that if anyone attacks scripture they are doing wrong - Mark 7:6-13, Matt 5 (So then... the word of Jesus).

Today, Jesus has made it clear that we should believe on Him through the Word of His Apostles under the New Covenant

The New Covenant quoted in Hebrews 8... is a quote of Jeremiah 31:31-33.

From the God who said "I do not change".


And Paul reminds us "There is only ONE Gospel" in all ages Gal 1:6-9 and "That Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

Jn 17:19-20

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

The Holy Spirit taught the Apostles of Christ the meaning of OT scriptures

Not to have them ignore them.

Your "solution" is to toss your Bible out the window --- you need to rethink that solution.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

That is because my Bible has 66 books not just 27-4 ---> 23.

And that is because the NT authors say that the OT "Scripture" is "inspired by God and to be used for doctrine" 2Tim 3:16.

And you might want to read section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and/or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" before attacking scripture in service to Calvinism.



Same God as in the NT.

Same God that put Moses and Elijah on the Mt of transfiguration (not an entire nation) along with Christ in Matt 17 -- in the pre-cross era.

Same God that said that if anyone attacks scripture they are doing wrong - Mark 7:6-13, Matt 5 (So then... the word of Jesus).



The New Covenant quoted in Hebrews 8... is a quote of Jeremiah 31:31-33.

From the God who said "I do not change".


And Paul reminds us "There is only ONE Gospel" in all ages Gal 1:6-9 and "That Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7



Not to have them ignore them.

Your "solution" is to toss your Bible out the window --- you need to rethink that solution.

in Christ,

Bob

JESUS prayed for those who shall believe in Him through the word of The Apostles ! They were given wisdom on how to understand the Old Testament scriptures !

 

[BobRyan]

The Pope claims the same thing.

"They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so" Acts 17:11. (As we love to remind our Catholic friends when it comes to "sola scriptura")

This is non-Christians studying the OT "sola scriptura" to SEE IF the Apostle Paul was indeed telling the truth - because as Paul reminds us in 2Tim 3:16 the OT is for doctrine.

Then you remind us that Calvinism is so devoted to proof-texting and scripture-avoidance that you must put 37 books of the Bible 'plus the 4 gospels' -- on "ignore"

As atrocious as your solution is - I congratulate you on being the only Calvinist to come up with one when it comes to the "lament" problem found in the actual Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

The Pope claims the same thing.

"They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so" Acts 17:11. (As we love to remind our Catholic friends when it comes to "sola scriptura")

This is non-Christians studying the OT "sola scriptura" to SEE IF the Apostle Paul was indeed telling the truth - because as Paul reminds us in 2Tim 3:16 the OT is for doctrine.

Then you remind us that Calvinism is so devoted to proof-texting and scripture-avoidance that you must put 37 books of the Bible 'plus the 4 gospels' -- on "ignore"

As atrocious as your solution is - I congratulate you on being the only Calvinist to come up with one when it comes to the "lament" problem found in the actual Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

You sound foolish and disrespectful towards what Jesus stated about the word of His Apostles !

 

[Iconoclast]

Another perfect example where the Calvinist argument runs headlong into the texts in the OP as can only survive by ignoring them.

That may be true in Calvinism but in the actual Bible Christ came to "Seek and save the lost" Luke 19:10 - almost everyone here (even some Calvinists) are hard pressed to oppose that Text.


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

You have claimed that this lament is impossible because only God controls that outcome and he cannot save the lost. He must first make them saved because in your own doctrine only the already saved saints - accept the gospel as if they were lost and needed it.

Bob...you keep repeating and copying your own posts over and over again, as if you have some memory loss...you forget you posted it 100 times already....

Fortunately your prophetess has some advice for her followers as she knew this would happen to them...I will post it to remind you each time..
Ellen G.White has this Lament...her teachings were the cause of her own lament;

"Children who practice self-indulgence (masturbation) previous to puberty, or the period of merging into manhood or womanhood, must pay the penalty of nature's violated laws at that critical period. Many sink into an early grave, while others have sufficient force of constitution to pass this ordeal. If the practice is continued from the age of fifteen and upward, nature will protest against the abuse she has suffered, and continues to suffer, and will make them pay the penalty for the transgression of her laws, especially from the ages of thirty to forty-five, by numerous pains in the system, and various diseases, such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors. Some of nature's fine machinery gives way, leaving a heavier task for the remaining to perform, which disorders nature's fine arrangement, and there is often a sudden breaking down of the constitution; and death is the result." (Solemn Appeal, 1870, p.63).

"They do not realize the exceeding sinfulness of this degrading sin, which is enervating the system and destroying their brain nerve power." (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p.347).

"He had practiced self-abuse until he was a mere wreck of humanity. This vice was shown me as an abomination in the sight of God. The results of self-abuse in them is seen in various diseases, such as catarrh, dropsy, headache, loss of memory and sight, great weakness in the back and loins, affections of the spine, the head often decays inwardly. Cancerous humor, which would lay dormant in the system their life-time, is inflamed, and commences its eating, destructive work. The mind is often utterly ruined, and insanity takes place." (Appeal to Mothers, 1864, pp.25, 27).

 

[steaver]

Bob...you keep repeating and copying your own posts over and over again, as if you have some memory loss...you forget you posted it 100 times already....

I believe Bob keeps repeating God's lament because you keep declaring it doesn't exist in the text. Maybe after the umpteenth time God will move upon you, opening your eyes that you may have space to repent and choose the obvious truth which most Christians clearly see. I think you probably block it out because you have swallowed the TULIP hook line and sinker and have given yourself no other choice but to defend it at even the expense of many passages of scripture which speaks out against TULIP.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe Bob keeps repeating God's lament because you keep declaring it doesn't exist in the text. Maybe after the umpteenth time God will move upon you, opening your eyes that you may have space to repent and choose the obvious truth which most Christians clearly see. I think you probably block it out because you have swallowed the TULIP hook line and sinker and have given yourself no other choice but to defend it at even the expense of many passages of scripture which speaks out against TULIP.

Steaver......do you believe the omniscient God ever needs to lament????


13."Cheese should never be introduced into the stomach'' (Testimonies to the Church, Vol. 2, page 68).
14."It is just as much sin to violate the laws of our being as to break one of the Ten Commandments'' ([eating a slice of bacon is as sinful as committing adultery] Testimonies to the Church, Vol. 2, page 70).

 

[steaver]

Steaver......do you believe the omniscient God ever needs to lament????


13."Cheese should never be introduced into the stomach'' (Testimonies to the Church, Vol. 2, page 68).
14."It is just as much sin to violate the laws of our being as to break one of the Ten Commandments'' ([eating a slice of bacon is as sinful as committing adultery] Testimonies to the Church, Vol. 2, page 70).

I believe God when He says CRYS OUT..........

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[BobRyan]

You sound foolish and disrespectful towards what Jesus stated about the word of His Apostles !

You are using simple "harrumph!" to oppose Acts 17:11 - that is not a compelling argument.

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Bob...you keep repeating and copying your own posts

your "need" to avoid the texts above -- is more than a little obvious.

I think Calvinists genuinely "imagine to themselves" that nobody notices the bible-avoidance techniques they invent.

That is more than a little sad.

In any case - the Bible remains. Calvinism has no response other than SavedByMercy's question of why are we even reading these texts at all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]



your "need" to avoid the texts above -- is more than a little obvious.

I think Calvinists genuinely "imagine to themselves" that nobody notices the bible-avoidance techniques they invent.

That is more than a little sad.

In any case - the Bible remains. Calvinism has no response other than SavedByMercy's question of why are we even reading these texts at all.

in Christ,

Bob

Receiving Christ is also to believe in or on Him, which pleases God, for Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 but them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 so they cannot receive Him as stated in Jn 1:12 !

 

[steaver]

Receiving Christ is also to believe in or on Him, which pleases God, for Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 but them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 so they cannot receive Him as stated in Jn 1:12 !

John 1:12 says nothing about "they cannot receive Him". Why are you abusing God's Word in that way??

John1:12 - "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name".

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

How do Calvinists solve this problem of Calvinism making God the author of His own lament?

1. Deny the texts exist

Steaver......do you believe the omniscient God ever needs to lament????

2. Dig the whole deeper

Receiving Christ is also to believe in or on Him, which pleases God, for Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 but them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 so they cannot receive Him as stated in Jn 1:12 !

By nonsensically "digging the hole deeper" for themselves apparently.

God sovereignly "selected" them as "His OWN" --

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:22

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

 

[OldRegular]

Look at those verses very closely. God is dealing with His people, and not the world indiscrimently. We, His chosen from all over the world, sin. When we do so, it grieves God. In fact, He sends a rod of correction our way so that we get back in line. That is what those verses are dealing with. God chastens those that He loves, like a dad whips his children. Not out of hatred or spite, but love. By doing so, we learn not to do that again. And if/when we do, we get another dose of the same thing.

Very well said O" convicted1! Ryan is ignoring the context in which these verses are written. A parallel in the new Testament would be 1st John and certain parts of Hebrews! Of course Ryan believes one can lose their Salvation so ?????

 

[BobRyan]

Almost as ignorant as the Steve Gaines sermon ....

Pretty much average for a response to such a list of bible texts that Calvinists do not find "convenient" to study or deal with.

Nothing new there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding -- #2

Look at those verses very closely. God is dealing with His people, and not the world indiscrimently. We, His chosen from all over the world, sin. When we do so, it grieves God.

He is grieved "in the text" because the Jews are "still saved no matter that they reject the Messiah"??

Really??

A "Christless Gospel" to prop up Calvinism???

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]