Featured The Fear of Calvinism in the SBC

I bought the electronic banking game as I thought it would be easier (it was) and quicker (it wasn’t). After two hours he decided to just count the money and see who won (which was not me – I was playing the game and investing). With only 3 players (and one being 10), that game is so long.

Thanks. I discovered this and am beginning to understand who is capable of arguing a point and who can only quarrel. I have not always taken the “kinder” approach, unfortunately, but I do try to be faithful to Christ's words.

 

No, but I am an advocate of a fuller appreciation, presentation, and understanding of Scripture than some would allow. When one can only believe Ephesians 2:8-9 by rejecting other passages of Scripture then there is a flaw in that person’s belief system. This is not the case with Calvinism, or even most of the Calvinists that I know of, but it is the case with some Christians. This, I believe, is one reason that many non-Calvinistic churches avoid the topic of election – they cannot easily reconcile it with their belief system.


What part of Ephesians 2:8-9 do I not understand?

I have never experienced it in a church (as stated). Actually, it has been the opposite – non-Calvinists have objected to scripture that was not presented in such a manner to emphasize free-will. But I’ve only seen this twice, that I can recall.

Not when the topic is addressing the extreme side of the issue. I have not seen you object when Arminianism is being presented as flawed by voicing the ways God has used John Wesley. Instead, you have dealt with the issue at hand. R.C. Sproul is right – there are some who are so aggressive and impatient, on a mission to ensure everyone knows the truth of divine election, that they should be locked in a cage to cool down and mature.

My mother once told me that she would never board an airplane if she knew the pilot to be a woman. Her reasoning was that if an emergency occurred, she feared that the pilot would become too emotionally involved in the circumstance to objectively evaluate the situation. Thank you for providing an illustration that emotional blindness and attachment is not gender specific.

 

I don’t want to get caught up here too much, but sure.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2065246#post2065246

 

:laugh::laugh: I'd be inclined often to agree.

How do I misunderstand Eph. 2:8-9?

 

As an undergraduate student I was pretty much a Reformation Arminian. I ran into several arrogant, elitist Calvinists (my perspective) who wanted to convert me but were unable to actually communicate as they couldn’t “hear” my objections or view. One classmate was different. He invited me to explain my understanding to him, and listen to his explanation. Afterwards we still didn’t agree, but we did start corresponding via email – the goal being not to change the others mind but to mutually understand the others position. Anyway, what I discovered was that if I were God I’d have done it the Arminian way – but Scripture was much more supportive of the Calvinistic view. For me, it was also in defending my non-Calvinistic view through Scripture that I began to understand and reject that view.

 

You misunderstand – it wasn’t an accusation. You shouldn’t have gone into the way God used those who believe Arminian doctrine in arguing against that doctrine. Neither should I when pointing out what I (and others like Sproul, Machaney, White, etc) see as an issue with a few. If it makes you “feel” better – and let’s be clear, I can’t help but see that this is becoming about feelings rather than doctrine – while I believe these few to be misguided and misapplying truth, I am not rejecting their doctrine here.

 

That’s on you big boy. You tell me my understanding of the passage (as you have clearly stated it is flawed). While you are at it, tell me my belief of depravity. So bluntly, “put up or shut up” – defend your assessment.

 

Nothing...that I know of. I don't know your age, but I suspect you never met the man.

This was your comment:

My point was practice what you preach. I disagreed because I believe one can look at issues independently.

 

I certainly do not view you as unable to voice your perspective as you have adequately demonstrated to the contrary. :smilewinkgrin: That’s not what I’m asking.

I will help your lapse in omniscience. In context with the entire passage, my understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9 is that as believers, were once dead in our trespasses and sins. Because of God’s love for us, even when we were dead, He made us alive together with Christ. It is by grace we have been saved through faith. This is not of ourselves, but is the gift of God; not a result of works. I hope that clarifies.

Where does my understanding depart from biblical truth? Don’t just say I’m wrong – show me so I can learn from my mistake rather than view your comment as an unfounded accusation.

You, perhaps, but I have not intentionally accused Calvinists in general of anything – if so, please show me where.