It Is Not Possible To Know God By One's Own Furtherance.

[padredurand]

I did not see a Scripture which said anything about "God's greatest gift," quite similar to how there is no Scripture about having "a favorite verse," or about "claiming Scripture."

I find no Scripture that says these things:

1. God, remind me of how you have moved this past week. How you answered prayer.
2. God, is there someone here this morning you would have me pray for (silently)? Is there a friend or family member you would have me pray for?
3. God, is there a concern you would have me pray about? To share publicly? Family, friend, community? Source

 

[InTheLight]

...anything beyond Scripture will tell us nothing more about The Father and Christ than what is in Scripture.

We can only know about The Father and about Christ. If one thinks they do actually "know God" or "know Christ" then they should be easily able to clearly state what they know about The Father and about Christ beyond what is disclosed in Scripture.

May I ask what is the purpose of this post?

 

[padredurand]

May I ask what is the purpose of this post?

To show how friendly and non-judgmental Quakers are. :wavey:

 

[Stegley]

Really? I'd think the passage he gave would be the proof that statement is wrong. Perhaps the context would help you.

2 Corinthians 9, NASB
10 Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
11 you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.
12 For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
13 Because of the proof given by this ministry, they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,
14 while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.
15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!​

He could be talking about the gracious goodness of God through His provision, but most believe, as do I, that the "indescribable gift" is Christ Himself, of whom John Gill wrote regarding this passage:Or do you deny the truth of Scripture? And I would join RevMitchell in asking where you learned such heresy?

( ... I am lovingly waiting for you to help us see where in the above passage it describes Scripture as "God's greatest gift.")

I do agree, though, Paul's gospel message preaches so very well from so many modern pulpits occupied by Professional Church Talkers because Paul was a powerful and skilled creator of obtuse emblandishments supposedly gained from his Christophany and from his nonApostolic training in Arabia. Paul's endless explanations and improvements upon Christ's Gospel provide endless sermon grist for all who would aspire to a career of substituting speech for deeds from behind a pulpit.

 

[Revmitchell]

( ... I am lovingly waiting for you to help us see where in the above passage it describes Scripture as "God's greatest gift.")

I do agree, though, Paul's gospel message preaches so very well from so many modern pulpits occupied by Professional Church Talkers because Paul was a powerful and skilled creator of obtuse emblandishments supposedly gained from his Christophany and from his nonApostolic training in Arabia. Paul's endless explanations and improvements upon Christ's Gospel provide endless sermon grist for all who would aspire to a career of substituting speech for deeds from behind a pulpit.

 

[Stegley]

I believe you are quite mistaken as God has chosen scripture to reveal all revealed truth to us.Jn 17:17

Without this gift, we have no true knowledge of God, His plan and purpose, and the true meaning of any created fact. We would not know our condidtion or the God given remedy. This is more than a notion my friend:laugh:

What did Jesus say about The Jews who thought God's Word in The Torah gave them life?

Rethink your reaction here before you post ...

 

[Stegley]

Without the written word.....you do not know Jesus...or salvation.

Are you saying you "know" Jesus through the written Word? Or, do you only know "about" Him?

 

[Stegley]

May I ask what is the purpose of this post?

To state that it is not possible to know God by one's own furtherance. Seeking God will result in finding Him, but knowledge of God will not exceed what is disclosed about Him in Scripture. Any attempts to know more of God beyond Scripture is just mere human imagination at work.

Perhaps we should begin a teaching thread upon the true character and value of human imagination.

 

[Stegley]

Feed not the Professional Church Talkers with unmarketable job skills, and who attempt to equate words with deeds.

 

[Van]

Hi Stegley, interesting thread.

What we know about God and Christ comes either directly or indirectly from what God has made and His written revelation.

To know God or know Christ as opposed to knowing about them, refers to folks who have been spiritually placed in Christ and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit interacts with us and brings to mind our faults and our leadings from the Spirit. This interaction is how we "know" God, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But I would certainly agree, nothing I have gleamed or though I gleamed from "knowing" God, Christ and the Spirit differs or adds differing information to my understanding of God's written revelation. I am no prophet. However I like to think, because I am indwelled with the Spirit, I can discern spiritual things -meat- that I would not discern if not indwelt.

 

[Stegley]

Hi Stegley, interesting thread.

What we know about God and Christ comes either directly or indirectly from what God has made and His written revelation.

To know God or know Christ as opposed to knowing about them, refers to folks who have been spiritually placed in Christ and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit interacts with us and brings to mind our faults and our leadings from the Spirit. This interaction is how we "know" God, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But I would certainly agree, nothing I have gleamed or though I gleamed from "knowing" God, Christ and the Spirit differs or adds differing information to my understanding of God's written revelation. I am no prophet. However I like to think, because I am indwelled with the Spirit, I can discern spiritual things -meat- that I would not discern if not indwelt.

The interaction if a Believer with The Holy Spirit is not given in Scripture as how one "knows God." The Holy Spirit never speaks quietly and inwardly to any single person.

 

[InTheLight]

To state that it is not possible to know God by one's own furtherance. Seeking God will result in finding Him, but knowledge of God will not exceed what is disclosed about Him in Scripture. Any attempts to know more of God beyond Scripture is just mere human imagination at work.

Yes, I agree. I didn't think the subject matter would spark much conversation. There are some that think God speaks to them through dreams. I thought some would post in this thread, but I guess not.

Perhaps we should begin a teaching thread upon the true character and value of human imagination.

You could, but there is plenty of imagination going on regarding what the Bible says without needing to go outside of it!

 

[Stegley]

23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
I suppose the alternative for Christians or saved folk, would be Christ knowing us. God is very personal and intimate as He has revealed in His word. We are the bride of Christ, you can't get much more intimate than that. Being a Christian is about knowing Christ and growing your personal relationship with Him.

It is foolish and unproductive to attempt to use modern marraige relationships to "understand" The Bride and to know about God. It is not a good idea to try to form God into our image.

In fact, the preponderance of Scriptural evidence shows The Bride of Christ to be The New Jerusalem, and not The Church. So sorry you are without discernment on such a precious concept.

 

[Stegley]

Yes, I agree. I didn't think the subject matter would spark much conversation. There are some that think God speaks to them through dreams. I thought some would post in this thread, but I guess not.



You could, but there is plenty of imagination going on regarding what the Bible says without needing to go outside of it!

Oh there is much in Scripture about Professional Church Talkers. Proverbs 10:19 states:

"In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin; but he that refraineth his lips is wise."

 

[Van]

Rebuttal

The interaction if a Believer with The Holy Spirit is not given in Scripture as how one "knows God." The Holy Spirit never speaks quietly and inwardly to any single person.

1) Several verses discuss the "interaction" of the Holy Spirit with the believer. For example 2 Corinthians 2:14. He manifests knowledge of Him through us. So we know God through the Holy Spirit, after we are indwelt.

2) In Romans 8:23, we have the first fruits of the Spirit, such as waiting eagerly for our adoption (bodily resurrection) as sons. This would be an example of being led by the Holy Spirit.

Bottom line, your claim that our indwelt Holy Spirit never guides us inwardly is without support in scripture.

We know we abide in Him, and He in us because He has given us His Spirit. How would we know He has given us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit does not manifest itself within us?

 

[Stegley]

1) Several verses disvbcuss the "interaction" of the Holy Spirit with the believer. For example 2 Corinthians 2:14. He manifests knowledge of Him through us. So we know God through the Holy Spirit, after we are indwelt.

2) In Romans 8:23, we have the first fruits of the Spirit, such as waiting eagerly for our adoption (bodily resurrection) as sons. This would be an example of being led by the Holy Spirit.

Bottom line, your claim that our indwelt Holy Spirit never guides us inwardly is without support in scripture.

We know we abide in Him, and He in us because He has given us His Spirit. How would we know He has given us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit does not manifest itself within us?

Thank you for further demonstrating from Scripture my statement that no Scripture shows The Holy Spirit inwardly speaking to an individual. 2 Corinthians 2:14 and Romabs 8:28 say nothing of The Holy Spirit doing so. If you "feel" they do, cite the exact words rather than your own thinking.

Remember, people such as David, Sampson, people in the Asia Minor Churches all at some time mightily had The Holy Spirit but they all screwed up and lost much. Try again to find even one passage which shows The Holy Spirit inwardly speaking to one individual. Do not run away.

 

[DHK]

Try again to find even one passage which shows The Holy Spirit inwardly speaking to one individual. Do not run away.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.
Does He do the same for you?

 

[InTheLight]

Remember, people such as David, Sampson, people in the Asia Minor Churches all at some time mightily had The Holy Spirit but they all screwed up and lost much. Try again to find even one passage which shows The Holy Spirit inwardly speaking to one individual. Do not run away.

Luke 1:41-45
Acts 7:55-56
Acts 11:28

I suppose there are more.

 

[Van]

Thank you for further demonstrating from Scripture my statement that no Scripture shows The Holy Spirit inwardly speaking to an individual. 2 Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 8:28 [S/B 8:23] say nothing of The Holy Spirit doing so. If you "feel" they do, cite the exact words rather than your own thinking.

Remember, people such as David, Sampson, people in the Asia Minor Churches all at some time mightily had The Holy Spirit but they all screwed up and lost much. Try again to find even one passage which shows The Holy Spirit inwardly speaking to one individual. Do not run away.

I am not interested in word games, to manifest knowledge of God is to speak inwardly. You can deny it, if you want. However, your statement is unbiblical. And I am waiting for you to answer my question, "how would we know He has given us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit does not manifest itself within us?

 

[BobRyan]

No place in Scripture demonstrates a commonly available relationship with The Father or with Christ to consist of any knowledge or any experience beyond what God and Christ have chosen to reveal about themselves in Scripture. Since Scripture is both the complete revelation of The Father and Christ for this dispensation and is the Standard for Truth, anything beyond Scripture will tell us nothing more about The Father and Christ than what is in Scripture. ...

We can only know about The Father and about Christ. If one thinks they do actually "know God" or "know Christ" then they should be easily able to clearly state what they know about The Father and about Christ beyond what is disclosed in Scripture.

We all agree that in Acts 17:11 the NT saints applying the "sola scriptura method" in that chapter -- could not have been using the model describe in the paragraph above.

We all agree that this could not have been the model for any reader of any NT author except possibly for John's readers - since they live at a time when the last NT writer - was writing.

Thus the paragraph above is certainly not the norm for the NT saints of the first century - it could at most be the imagined case for 2nd century NT saints.

A better observation would be the one we find in 2Tim 3:16-17 when the NT was still as yet - not fully written.

The same goes for 2Peter 1:19-21. These texts tell us how information has been given to mankind but never claims that the only prophets getting messages from God - in either NT or OT - were Bible writers.

Nathan in the OT, Agabus in the NT, Elijah, Elisha (almost everyone in 1Cor 14) etc are all examples of Bible prophets that wrote no books of scripture - and yet were given messages by God that could not simply be "ignored".

in Christ,

Bob