A very interesting God.

[pinoybaptist]

130 million babies are born every year,and out of this number 4 million die in the first 4 weeks of their lives.
source: http://www.ask.com/question/how-many-babies-are-born-each-year

In the United States alone, over 200,000 new Americans are born each year.
Now, consider: not all of these, worldwide or national, babies will actually reach maturity (as in die in the ripe old age of.....), some will die in infancy, some in adolescence, some in their teens, some as young adults, some in their middle age, and so on...the thing is they will die.
and while they are dying or growing up, EVERY YEAR, close to the same number of babies will be born.

Then, consider, not all of these babies will be born in technologically advanced countries.
some will be born rich, middle class, working class, or just dirt poor.
some will have the best education, some average, some none at all.
worldwide, babies will be born in Islamic-dominated countries, and others in non-Christian countries, while still others in nihilist societies.

Will there be enough missionaries, preachers, lay preachers, "soul winners", "church workers", to take the gospel to each and everyone of these babies and get them "saved" from the fires of hell and the wrath of God ?

Remember, Arminians and non-Calvinists, and even many among the Reformed and Calvinistic churches, and a lot more of different soteriological colors in between, strongly insist that God demands that the gospel is preached to EVERYONE.

Obiously, it is utterly IMPOSSIBLE for ANY MAN to be able to fulfill that command, just as it is impossible for an unregenerate to come to the true God entirely on his own volition.

This God is interesting, really.

Heaven is His throne, the Universe cannot contain Him, He created the world as we see it, He created the first man from clay, the first woman from the rib of that first man, He created an ENTIRE NATION from the loins of one man, needed only 300 dog-like warriors (they lap water with their tongues), divided a sea so people could cross over, name EVERY STAR in the constellation, describes Himself as Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, commands waves and winds ,and send ravens to feed a prophet, turns water into wine, rose from the dead, raised people from the dead, He does EVERYTHING IMPOSSIBLE.

Yet He expects responsibility from a sin and trespass deadened creation ?
Yet He expects men, limited in all their abilities, to be instrumental in taking His gospel to EVERY MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD WHO WILL EVER LIVE IN THIS PLANET so they can get saved ?
yet He expects a gospel, by its very name and definition, simply, GOOD NEWS, to complete His work of redemption ?

very interesting God.

It will be equally interesting to find out how those on this board proposes to do what they say this interesting God expects them to do.
THAT IS THE QUESTION.
The rest: backgrounder.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

130 million babies are born every year,and out of this number 4 million die in the first 4 weeks of their lives.
source: http://www.ask.com/question/how-many-babies-are-born-each-year

In the United States alone, over 200,000 new Americans are born each year.
Now, consider: not all of these, worldwide or national, babies will actually reach maturity (as in die in the ripe old age of.....), some will die in infancy, some in adolescence, some in their teens, some as young adults, some in their middle age, and so on...the thing is they will die.
and while they are dying or growing up, EVERY YEAR, close to the same number of babies will be born.

Then, consider, not all of these babies will be born in technologically advanced countries.
some will be born rich, middle class, working class, or just dirt poor.
some will have the best education, some average, some none at all.
worldwide, babies will be born in Islamic-dominated countries, and others in non-Christian countries, while still others in nihilist societies.

Will there be enough missionaries, preachers, lay preachers, "soul winners", "church workers", to take the gospel to each and everyone of these babies and get them "saved" from the fires of hell and the wrath of God ?

Remember, Arminians and non-Calvinists, and even many among the Reformed and Calvinistic churches, and a lot more of different soteriological colors in between, strongly insist that God demands that the gospel is preached to EVERYONE.

Obiously, it is utterly IMPOSSIBLE for ANY MAN to be able to fulfill that command, just as it is impossible for an unregenerate to come to the true God entirely on his own volition.

This God is interesting, really.

Heaven is His throne, the Universe cannot contain Him, He created the world as we see it, He created the first man from clay, the first woman from the rib of that first man, He created an ENTIRE NATION from the loins of one man, needed only 300 dog-like warriors (they lap water with their tongues), divided a sea so people could cross over, name EVERY STAR in the constellation, describes Himself as Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, commands waves and winds ,and send ravens to feed a prophet, turns water into wine, rose from the dead, raised people from the dead, He does EVERYTHING IMPOSSIBLE.

Yet He expects responsibility from a sin and trespass deadened creation ?
Yet He expects men, limited in all their abilities, to be instrumental in taking His gospel to EVERY MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD WHO WILL EVER LIVE IN THIS PLANET so they can get saved ?
yet He expects a gospel, by its very name and definition, simply, GOOD NEWS, to complete His work of redemption ?

very interesting God.

It will be equally interesting to find out how those on this board proposes to do what they say this interesting God expects them to do.
THAT IS THE QUESTION.
The rest: backgrounder.

LOL......I would suggest skates for starters. I'm planning on giving my ole pogo stick to Evan.....that will complete him :smilewinkgrin:

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I believe the technology that is condemned by some believers is the very key to fulfilling the Great Commission, which I believe must be fulfilled before Jesus' return, no matter what your concept of that return might be. Satellites, fiber optics, the Internet -- all these things carry the very worst of humanity to the far corners of the world. Yet they also carry the message of Christ. It is thus that His Name will be carried to every ear, every heart, every human, and when it is, His Father will turn to Him at His right hand and say, "It is time." Every other biblical prophecy that is required before that time has been fulfilled.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I believe the technology that is condemned by some believers is the very key to fulfilling the Great Commission, which I believe must be fulfilled before Jesus' return, no matter what your concept of that return might be. Satellites, fiber optics, the Internet -- all these things carry the very worst of humanity to the far corners of the world. Yet they also carry the message of Christ. It is thus that His Name will be carried to every ear, every heart, every human, and when it is, His Father will turn to Him at His right hand and say, "It is time." Every other biblical prophecy that is required before that time has been fulfilled.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[evenifigoalone]

So what do you make of Mark 16:15, then?
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Or heck, the missionary efforts of the apostles themselves, where they preached the gospel everywhere they went (Scripture explicitly says so)?

Obviously there are those who have not had the chance to hear the gospel, even in our modern world. I'm not sure what happens to them, but God is able to make a way for sure. Perhaps they get in on the basis of ignorance. I've heard the argument that God wrote morality in our hearts, too, and that that morality will point men to God and from that point it's up to them to accept or reject it.

Yes, God is able to bring men to Himself without our help if He so chooses. He's God after all. But I think He wants us to be able to reach out to them in some way as fellow human beings. Humans tend to value the company and community of other likeminded humans.
And, besides that? God's way are not our ways. *shrug*

 

[Aaron]

I'm planning on giving my ole pogo stick to Evan.....that will complete him :smilewinkgrin:

ROFLOL. :tonofbricks:

 

[pinoybaptist]

So what do you make of Mark 16:15, then?
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Or heck, the missionary efforts of the apostles themselves, where they preached the gospel everywhere they went (Scripture explicitly says so)?

Interesting command, too. You know, somebody compared Jesus Christ to the two laws of thermodynamics. Or, if not Him, His power. I forgot exactly what the comment was, but it had to do with that Scripture that says He holds the world, no, the entire universe, together. I'll try to look it up and post it. I don't want to misquote it.

But my point is here is the Creator Himself, in human form, who because of that, have voluntarily LIMITED Himself in as far as movement and locality is just like the creation whose form He assumed. He knows that without feet it will be impossible for every one of those He was speaking to, to do what He was telling them to do, that even as they spoke, babies have been born and died, in fact, human beings have died and are being buried in the entire GLOBE, since He, being its Creator, knows a world far more expansive than the finite minds of those He was speaking to, yet, He, the Creator of the human tongue, and its ability to click-cluck into understandable language, used phrases and sentences which you have quoted which He Himself knows is IMPOSSIBLE for them to do. EVERY CREATURE ? come on, man.

Oh, before we lose sight of what we're talking about, I am commenting on the pop gospel which is said to be the reason souls are to be saved, not the blood on the cross, not the fact that Jesus Christ died and rose and lives forever, not anything in particular within the GOOD NEWS but the GOOD NEWS ITSELF.

Like lawyers telling an heir that he is rich IF he will believe that an unknown somebody left him his entire estate.

Obviously there are those who have not had the chance to hear the gospel, even in our modern world. I'm not sure what happens to them, but God is able to make a way for sure.

Well, that makes eternal salvation and redemption dependent then on HOW God wants it done, tailored to the circumstances of the individual ?

Perhaps they get in on the basis of ignorance.

But think about it. What is at stake is the ETERNAL destiny of souls whom God supposedly loves. If He is able to create worlds with built-in physical, chemical, and mathematical laws, shouldn't the salvation of souls, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN HIS AGENDA, be a matter of EXACTNESS and not left to ignorance, or entrusted to finite mortals who are unable to shield themselves from the fury of the elements in the world they live in ?

I've heard the argument that God wrote morality in our hearts, too, and that that morality will point men to God and from that point it's up to them to accept or reject it.

You're probably referring to that verse in Ecclessiastes that some say is the basis for our awareness of our own mortality...."set the world upon their hearts", I think is how it goes.
Or you're referring to the Law, which serves as Schoolmaster that points men to Christ.
But then, following your argument, if man can decide their eternity themselves, wherein is the point of God sending His own Son to the cruel death of the cross ?

Yes, God is able to bring men to Himself without our help if He so chooses. He's God after all. But I think He wants us to be able to reach out to them in some way as fellow human beings. Humans tend to value the company and community of other likeminded humans.
And, besides that? God's way are not our ways. *shrug*

and in the meantime, souls are slipping between the cracks, and God is not true to His own word, right ?
Didn't He say:

For as the rain cometh down , and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud , that it may give seed to the sower , and bread to the eater :
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please , and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Isaiah 55:10-11

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe the technology that is condemned by some believers is the very key to fulfilling the Great Commission, which I believe must be fulfilled before Jesus' return, no matter what your concept of that return might be. Satellites, fiber optics, the Internet -- all these things carry the very worst of humanity to the far corners of the world. Yet they also carry the message of Christ. It is thus that His Name will be carried to every ear, every heart, every human, and when it is, His Father will turn to Him at His right hand and say, "It is time." Every other biblical prophecy that is required before that time has been fulfilled.

so then we dont really need to go to church anymore as we can broadcast the message to the 4 corners of the world via satellite & I can sit home & dial into a sermon (Wonderful). You consider that the "NEW" Commission. But it worn t be carried to every ear, and every heart & every human for the simple reasons of poverty, depravity, destitution, retardation, brain damage etc. Not all can or will ever hear the Word because it will be kept from them by humans who profit by keeping it obscure or by physical handicaps. Only the Holy Spirit (in conjunction with the Father & son) will deliver that message.....NOT Human Beings with Technology, noise cancelling headphones & skates. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[kyredneck]

10 For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55

I believe the technology that is condemned by some believers is the very key to fulfilling the Great Commission, which I believe must be fulfilled before Jesus' return, no matter what your concept of that return might be.....

I agree totally with what you say concerning technology, but concerning the highlighted in red above, Luke (in Acts) phrases 'the great commission', as some call it, this way:

But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8

Take note Christ said, 'ye shall' receive power, 'ye shall' be my witnesses unto the end of the earth. Period. He didn't say I want you to try to do it, or to give it your best shot, He told them that they indeed would do it.

In the very next chapter Luke records:

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit [RECEIVED POWER].......
5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven [UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH].
6 .........every man heard them speaking in his own language [WITNESSES OF CHRIST]. Acts 2

Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia, in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. Acts 2:9-11

What do you think that those 'Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven' in Acts 2 did when they all went back home from the feast of Pentecost, after hearing and believing the gospel and themselves having received power from the Holy Spirit?

The preaching at Pentecost was a 'gospel bomb' that fulfilled Christ's words of Acts 1:8.

Not a doubt in my mind the 'gospel bomb' preaching at Pentecost is exactly what Paul is referring to here:

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

and consider this:

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1

and this:

Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16:25-26

IME, the most effectual preaching and spreading of the gospel comes from just plain ol' down to earth living it day to day (or should):

but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you... 1Pet 3:15

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

so then we dont really need to go to church anymore as we can broadcast the message to the 4 corners of the world via satellite & I can sit home & dial into a sermon (Wonderful). You consider that the "NEW" Commission. But it worn t be carried to every ear, and every heart & every human for the simple reasons of poverty, depravity, destitution, retardation, brain damage etc. Not all can or will ever hear the Word because it will be kept from them by humans who profit by keeping it obscure or by physical handicaps. Only the Holy Spirit (in conjunction with the Father & son) will deliver that message.....NOT Human Beings with Technology, noise cancelling headphones & skates. :smilewinkgrin:

Ambassadors for Christ is taking the Internet into the jungles, deserts, rain forests and mountains of the world, using satellite technology to bring the Jesus Film, for one, to those remote villages and locales. There are interpreters with every team, they use the Internet connections to instantly translate web pages with Scripture into the local language. Thousands are being evangelized, thousands are being reached for Christ.

The translation programs available today as software are being taken into the jungles, etc., with missionaries, particularly from the Wycliffe Society, and the years that it used to take to develop a Bible translation for a local dialect has been reduced to mere weeks. With tablets and Kindles, the Bible is being translated and delivered into the hands of people too poor to own a donkey, and opening up their minds, hearts and souls to the word of Christ.

It is through the Internet that the "illegal" house churches of China, Cuba and other countries hostile to gospel are able to be encouraged by other believers thousands of miles away. LifeWay is supplying Bible studies and lessons, translated into Mandarin and Cantonese, for these churches, which they can access freely even though China has done its absolute best to block these communications from the West.

These are just a few of the ways technology is overcoming the shortcomings of "one man with one Bible" in the remotest parts of the world. Remember hearing about the "10/40 window" in the East back in the 90s? Ever wonder why you still hear about it, but not with the urgency you used to hear?

The examples above, and others I could list, are why. The world is being evangelized with "the devil's own tools."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The translation programs available today as software are being taken into the jungles, etc., with missionaries, particularly from the Wycliffe Society, and the years that it used to take to develop a Bible translation for a local dialect has been reduced to mere weeks. With tablets and Kindles, the Bible is being translated and delivered into the hands of people too poor to own a donkey, and opening up their minds, hearts and souls to the word of Christ.

Are they teaching them to read as well?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Are they teaching them to read as well?

Why do you assume they're illiterate? Most aren't. They just don't read English.

Of course, there are some who are illiterate. That's another purpose for having interpreters with the group.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why do you assume they're illiterate? Most aren't. They just don't read English.

Of course, there are some who are illiterate. That's another purpose for having interpreters with the group.

Have you been to Afghanistan?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Have you been to Afghanistan?

Not exactly a safe place to preach the gospel these days, is it? Yeah, I know, the mountain people are especially illiterate. But then again, Afghanistan is being evangelized -- and the Islamists don't particularly care for it.

Christianity Today: How to evangelize Afghanistan

If you can convert a few of the literal Afghanis, the message will spread. That's all it takes. Christian missionaries didn't address every single one of the 400 million Chinese at the beginning of the last century. They evangelized a few, and the gospel spread out from there.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Interesting command, too. You know, somebody compared Jesus Christ to the two laws of thermodynamics. Or, if not Him, His power. I forgot exactly what the comment was, but it had to do with that Scripture that says He holds the world, no, the entire universe, together. I'll try to look it up and post it. I don't want to misquote it.

But my point is here is the Creator Himself, in human form, who because of that, have voluntarily LIMITED Himself in as far as movement and locality is just like the creation whose form He assumed. He knows that without feet it will be impossible for every one of those He was speaking to, to do what He was telling them to do, that even as they spoke, babies have been born and died, in fact, human beings have died and are being buried in the entire GLOBE, since He, being its Creator, knows a world far more expansive than the finite minds of those He was speaking to, yet, He, the Creator of the human tongue, and its ability to click-cluck into understandable language, used phrases and sentences which you have quoted which He Himself knows is IMPOSSIBLE for them to do. EVERY CREATURE ? come on, man.

Oh, before we lose sight of what we're talking about, I am commenting on the pop gospel which is said to be the reason souls are to be saved, not the blood on the cross, not the fact that Jesus Christ died and rose and lives forever, not anything in particular within the GOOD NEWS but the GOOD NEWS ITSELF.

Like lawyers telling an heir that he is rich IF he will believe that an unknown somebody left him his entire estate.

So what exactly is your view on the verse? Do you believe it means we should try to tell others about the gospel, or not?

Well, that makes eternal salvation and redemption dependent then on HOW God wants it done, tailored to the circumstances of the individual

And people do come to God for many reasons and from many circumstances.

But think about it. What is at stake is the ETERNAL destiny of souls whom God supposedly loves. If He is able to create worlds with built-in physical, chemical, and mathematical laws, shouldn't the salvation of souls, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN HIS AGENDA, be a matter of EXACTNESS and not left to ignorance, or entrusted to finite mortals who are unable to shield themselves from the fury of the elements in the world they live in ?

It's not dependent on us, it never was. God doesn't need us, that's pretty obvious. And yet we are commanded to spread the gospel and minister to others. Maybe it doesn't make sense to us, since yeah God doesn't need us. But does it have to? If we trust God, then we trust that He has a reason for doing things the way He does.

You're probably referring to that verse in Ecclessiastes that some say is the basis for our awareness of our own mortality...."set the world upon their hearts", I think is how it goes.
Or you're referring to the Law, which serves as Schoolmaster that points men to Christ.
But then, following your argument, if man can decide their eternity themselves, wherein is the point of God sending His own Son to the cruel death of the cross ?

Um, I never said man can decide their own eternity. (Although if you're referring to free will, yes I do believe that exists. But that's not the point.) And Jesus died on the cross because that was the only way for us to be pardoned from our sins. No one can save themselves, that's impossible.
It's only a theory anyway, I really don't know for sure how those who have never heard of God or Jesus are saved. I trust that God has some plan for it, though.

and in the meantime, souls are slipping between the cracks, and God is not true to His own word, right ?
Didn't He say:

For as the rain cometh down , and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud , that it may give seed to the sower , and bread to the eater :
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please , and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Isaiah 55:10-11

I don't get your point at all here.

What you've been providing are arguments based on man's understanding of logic on apparently why evangelism doesn't make sense. And from a human logical standpoint you're right. Yet we are told to spread the gospel, so God must have a reason. I trust God more than I trust my head, honestly. Although, yes, he gave me a brain and made logic for a reason.

I know better to assume that you have no scriptural basis for your words here, though.
I usually avoid debates regarding differences in denominational/sub denominational doctrines as they tend to be more confusing than helpful and because I'm not particularly well equipped for debates in those areas. So perhaps I have no place in this discussion. I'd be interested in hearing your views, laid out clearly, on what scripture has to say about spreading the gospel, though.

Anyway, I've got to get back to work.

 

[Winman]

I don't get your point at all here.

What you've been providing are arguments based on man's understanding of logic on apparently why evangelism doesn't make sense. And from a human logical standpoint you're right. Yet we are told to spread the gospel, so God must have a reason. I trust God more than I trust my head, honestly. Although, yes, he gave me a brain and made logic for a reason.

Anyway, I've got to get back to work.

I think what they are doing is trying to prove Limited Atonement. They want to prove that God doesn't really want to save everyone, but only a few elect persons. They do this by pointing out as many people as they can that aren't hearing the gospel.

They aren't saying this directly, they are subtly implying it.

 

[kyredneck]

Yea, a sneaky subtle conniving bunch we are.....

....be careful there's apt to be a Calvinist hiding under any rock or behind any tree at any time....and then BAM! They jump out scare you with scripture! LOL!

 

[Winman]

Yea, a sneaky subtle conniving bunch we are.....

Couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbsup:

 

[kyredneck]

If you could only stamp the Doctrines of Grace the world's problems would be solved, wouldn't it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you could only stamp the Doctrines of Grace the world's problems would be solved, wouldn't it?

There is your 'No Answer Answer'