Featured The nature of Quickening

This proves that you cannot be reasoned with on any level of this discussion. Even if the text clearly states that its man's responsibility to put off the flesh and put on the spirit, you will continue to impute your system onto and over the text to suggest that man has nothing to do with taking off or putting on anything.

What is even more revealing is that in another discussion you argued that even we has believers could not resist temptation without a certain 'measure of grace' from God in order to do so. So, even if he is talking only about believer putting on the new man, you deny human responsibility, because the man isn't able to do so without a certain 'measure of grace.' Any time a believer sins, according to your arguments earlier, it is ultimately due to the fact that God has chosen not to grant the necessary measure of grace for that individual to reject that temptation. So, ultimately your constant moving of the goal post to talk about believers rather than the lost means nothing, because in either situation you deny human responsibility.

 

Consequences are something God has no control over? Or is that the condition?

 

Verse 18 shows the lost man is "ignorant". We are alienated from God by ignorance, not some metaphysical inability.

Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Unsaved people are ignorant, they do not know the true God and they do not understand righteousness. This is why Jesus commanded us to go into the world and TEACH the gospel to men.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus commanded us to teach men. This shows men have ability. Men LEARN of Jesus and this enables them to trust and believe in him. This is also how men's minds are renewed and they learn to live holy lives.

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Men are saved by HEARING the word of God and LEARNING (John 6:45). This enables a man to believe in Jesus. Men also are renewed in their mind and become holy by learning and observing the word of God, by obeying God's commands such are given in this very passage of Ephesians where we are told to stop lying, to earn an honest living so we can support ourselves and help others, not to let corrupt words come out of our mouths, put away wrath and bitterness, to be kind, etc...

We are not ZAPPED to become holy, we LEARN to be holy by trusting God and obeying his commands.

 

And to be quickened means to be spiritually alive, this occurs when a man trusts in Jesus and all his sins and trespasses are forgiven.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Men are spiritually dead because of their sins and trespasses. Therefore, to be quickened and spiritually alive all your sins and trespasses must be removed. This can only occur when we believe on Jesus and are forgiven and then baptized into his body by the Holy Spirit that is given when we believe.

 

Not sure what your point was. Did you want to change the subject from the topic to my behavior. If so, you need to stick to the topic.

If your effort was to insult me, not sure if that moves the ball.

Presenting the truth is an act of love.

Redefining word after word after word in an attempt to pour Calvinism into scripture is nonsense. To attempt to give hogwash an air of credibility by draping the arguments with grammar verbiage, is disingenuous at best.

Now I have been told I "hate" Calvinists. But the truth is I hate Calvinism because I believe it to be mistaken doctrine.
I believe called means called, regenerated means regenerated, saved means saved, and fallen men, dead in sins, can understand the milk of the gospel.

If you would like to actually discuss those points, and climb down from your holier than thou hobby horse, have at it.

 

Right because everyone knows, or should I say PRESUMES, that moving from the old to the new man is a RESPONSIBILITY of the individual and not God. Right? Or, is that 'measure of Grace' actually God's responsibility too?

Yeah, that's probably why a majority of believers reject Calvinism and hold to the common sense view of human responsibility...but I'm sure that's just because God determined it to be that way, right?

 

Admitting our inability to win the war with our flesh without God's help is one thing. Admitting our inability to resist God's help when genuinely offered is quite another.

 

Except when the believer chooses to sin...remember? The reason a believer sins is because God, for whatever reason, did not grant the measure of grace needed for the individual to resist that temptation. That was your position in an earlier conversation, so it is not as if man's choices are made differently after salvation than before in your system as they are both equally determined by God.

 

hmmm "sorta like it reads in english".

Ephesians 4 shows progression both for the saved and the lost.

Progressive state of the lost

17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.




Progressive state of the saved

1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.


in Christ,

Bob

 

God bless you! I wasn't trying to insult you. Normally I don't partake in these debates because they become name calling/slandering contest. I wasn't even defending Calvinism, simply reminding you that you are called to love your neighbor as yourself and are representing Christ.

 

So, even a believer is like a dog acting by instinct when he sins? When that believer commits adultery he had no choice but to sleep with the temptress? IS that what you are saying? David had no choice but to sleep with Bathsheba and have her husband killed? He didn't 'do anything' but just let the robotic preprogrammed instinct take over? I don't follow.

So, the last time you sinned, why didn't you do this instead?

The answer to that question reveals the problem of your system.

 

No, I get it. I just happen to believe God designed gravity and is sovereign over it's effects on us. But, I'm trying to see why you don't think God is sovereign over the effects of sin on mankind.

I KNEW you wouldn't answer that question...I KNEW it. I even PMed another poster and told him you wouldn't dare touch this... you can't answer it. It's not possible and I think you know it.

Tell you what...I'll answer your question, but then you have to answer my original question, deal?

 

Romans 8 "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

2Cor 10:4-5 "the weapons of our warfare and divinely powerful for the tearing down of fortresses".

Eph 6 "put on the full armor of God ... having done everything - stand firm"

"The mind set on the flesh is at war against God - it does not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN it" Rom 8:6-8

But that lost person IS DRAWN to Christ "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto me" John 12:32 and even Calvinists will admit that the Drawing of God enables all the choice that depravity would have disabled when it comes to choosing the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I believe exactly what Paul said, "God bound all men over to disobedience..." Why don't you?

And if God didn't "design the consequences" of sin, who did? Satan? Mother Nature? Where did God go while that was being decided? On vacation?

I can't believe I'm even having this discussion with a CALVINIST! The non-Calvinist is having to defend the sovereignty of God to a CALVINIST!!! Weird.

Where is Luke?

You responded with a question. You did not answer in this thread. In another thread you changed your answer when I pressed you on it. You started by indicating that you could have resisted but chose not to, but then you ended up saying that you didn't resist due to the fact that God didn't give you the measure of grace you needed to resist.

I have no problem answering the question you pose, because that question doesn't bother someone who believes in human responsibility and the mystery that entails.

Sure.

Obviously he has chosen to allow for responsibility (our ability to freely respond), not determinism.

Each and every time I sin it is completely my fault because God has granted all that I need to freely resist temptation and live a holy life. I'm fully to blame for any RESPONSE I make because I am RESPONSE-ABLED.

Likewise, because I don't fall into the deception that a gift must be irresistible for the giver to get full credit for giving it, I give God full credit for the grace and provision to stand up under temptation and resist it. So, I give God full glory for his provision and grace when sin is resisted.

See how easy this is when one simply affirms responsibility?

Like I said, in this thread you didn't tell us specifically why you didn't resist since that was an option available to you. In another thread you indicated God didn't grant you the necessary grace to do so. I'd love clarity on that.