The nature of Quickening

[Skandelon]

A lost man cannot "put on the new man" because the "new man" is a work of creation (Eph. 4:24). He is addressing saved persons who are in the Romans 7:14-25 struggle. Lost people cannot put on or put off. The old nature, indwelling sin, they are to put off characterizes the lost condition and that is why they should put it off and put on the new man. Ephesians 4:17-20 has NOTHING to do with a saved man and Ephesians 4:21-32 has NOTHING to do with a lost man. You are jerking scriptures out of context and confusing them.

This proves that you cannot be reasoned with on any level of this discussion. Even if the text clearly states that its man's responsibility to put off the flesh and put on the spirit, you will continue to impute your system onto and over the text to suggest that man has nothing to do with taking off or putting on anything.

What is even more revealing is that in another discussion you argued that even we has believers could not resist temptation without a certain 'measure of grace' from God in order to do so. So, even if he is talking only about believer putting on the new man, you deny human responsibility, because the man isn't able to do so without a certain 'measure of grace.' Any time a believer sins, according to your arguments earlier, it is ultimately due to the fact that God has chosen not to grant the necessary measure of grace for that individual to reject that temptation. So, ultimately your constant moving of the goal post to talk about believers rather than the lost means nothing, because in either situation you deny human responsibility.

 

[Skandelon]

Do you understand the difference between "condition" and "consequences"?

Consequences are something God has no control over? Or is that the condition?

 

[Winman]

Look at your next response and the light will come on!



A lost man cannot "put on the new man" because the "new man" is a work of creation (Eph. 4:24). He is addressing saved persons who are in the Romans 7:14-25 struggle. Lost people cannot put on or put off. The old nature, indwelling sin, they are to put off characterizes the lost condition and that is why they should put it off and put on the new man. Ephesians 4:17-20 has NOTHING to do with a saved man and Ephesians 4:21-32 has NOTHING to do with a lost man. You are jerking scriptures out of context and confusing them.

Verse 18 shows the lost man is "ignorant". We are alienated from God by ignorance, not some metaphysical inability.

Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Unsaved people are ignorant, they do not know the true God and they do not understand righteousness. This is why Jesus commanded us to go into the world and TEACH the gospel to men.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus commanded us to teach men. This shows men have ability. Men LEARN of Jesus and this enables them to trust and believe in him. This is also how men's minds are renewed and they learn to live holy lives.

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Men are saved by HEARING the word of God and LEARNING (John 6:45). This enables a man to believe in Jesus. Men also are renewed in their mind and become holy by learning and observing the word of God, by obeying God's commands such are given in this very passage of Ephesians where we are told to stop lying, to earn an honest living so we can support ourselves and help others, not to let corrupt words come out of our mouths, put away wrath and bitterness, to be kind, etc...

We are not ZAPPED to become holy, we LEARN to be holy by trusting God and obeying his commands.

 

[Winman]

And to be quickened means to be spiritually alive, this occurs when a man trusts in Jesus and all his sins and trespasses are forgiven.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Men are spiritually dead because of their sins and trespasses. Therefore, to be quickened and spiritually alive all your sins and trespasses must be removed. This can only occur when we believe on Jesus and are forgiven and then baptized into his body by the Holy Spirit that is given when we believe.

 

[Van]

Thanks Van that was very uplifting. Next time could you please refrain from being so rude and maybe a little more loving? There is enough hate in this forum already. God bless! :1_grouphug:

Not sure what your point was. Did you want to change the subject from the topic to my behavior. If so, you need to stick to the topic.

If your effort was to insult me, not sure if that moves the ball.

Presenting the truth is an act of love.

Redefining word after word after word in an attempt to pour Calvinism into scripture is nonsense. To attempt to give hogwash an air of credibility by draping the arguments with grammar verbiage, is disingenuous at best.

Now I have been told I "hate" Calvinists. But the truth is I hate Calvinism because I believe it to be mistaken doctrine.
I believe called means called, regenerated means regenerated, saved means saved, and fallen men, dead in sins, can understand the milk of the gospel.

If you would like to actually discuss those points, and climb down from your holier than thou hobby horse, have at it.

 

[The Biblicist]

This proves that you cannot be reasoned with on any level of this discussion.

No, it is proof you are not a capable expositor of Scripture. Paul is not recording the transition from a lost state to a saved state but a transition WITHIN THE SAVED STATE between the old and new man. This is simple, it is clear and you simply refuse to deal honestly with God's Word and every reader can easily see this is the meaning of the text. It is so self-evident to any objective reader that only blind bias refuses to acknowledge it.

 

[The Biblicist]

.

What is even more revealing is that in another discussion you argued that even we has believers could not resist temptation without a certain 'measure of grace' from God in order to do so. So, even if he is talking only about believer putting on the new man, you deny human responsibility, because the man isn't able to do so without a certain 'measure of grace.'

Your own spiritual growth is at stake here! If experience has not taught you Romans 7:18-24 then you are either a very immature Christian or your salvation is questionable. The only way you can be "filled" with the Spirit is to admit your total inability - Rom. 7:25. So I am denying "ability" just as Romans 7:18 clearly states that "to will is present but HOW TO PERFORM I FIND NOT." Do you understand what that means? It means he is confessing complete INABILITY of his own will power even with a regenerated new man to overcome the law of sin in his flesh. That is a fundemental lesson that the most immature Christian must experience and admit if they are to walk in the Spirit AT ALL.

 

[Skandelon]

Paul is not recording the transition from a lost state to a saved state but a transition WITHIN THE SAVED STATE between the old and new man.

Right because everyone knows, or should I say PRESUMES, that moving from the old to the new man is a RESPONSIBILITY of the individual and not God. Right? Or, is that 'measure of Grace' actually God's responsibility too?

This is simple, it is clear and you simply refuse to deal honestly with God's Word and every reader can easily see this is the meaning of the text. It is so self-evident to any objective reader that only blind bias refuses to acknowledge it.

Yeah, that's probably why a majority of believers reject Calvinism and hold to the common sense view of human responsibility...but I'm sure that's just because God determined it to be that way, right?

 

[Skandelon]

Your own spiritual growth is at stake here! If experience has not taught you Romans 7:18-24 then you are either a very immature Christian or your salvation is questionable. The only way you can be "filled" with the Spirit is to admit your total inability - Rom. 7:25. So I am denying "ability" just as Romans 7:18 clearly states that "to will is present but HOW TO PERFORM I FIND NOT." Do you understand what that means? It means he is confessing complete INABILITY of his own will power even with a regenerated new man to overcome the law of sin in his flesh. That is a fundemental lesson that the most immature Christian must experience and admit if they are to walk in the Spirit AT ALL.

Admitting our inability to win the war with our flesh without God's help is one thing. Admitting our inability to resist God's help when genuinely offered is quite another.

 

[The Biblicist]

Admitting our inability to win the war with our flesh without God's help is one thing. Admitting our inability to resist God's help when genuinely offered is quite another.

Yes, but the saved man has a regenerated nature with desire to please God whereas the lost man does not have that kind of nature or desire that comes iwth that nature.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, but the saved man has a regenerated nature with desire to please God whereas the lost man does not have that kind of nature or desire that comes iwth that nature.

Except when the believer chooses to sin...remember? The reason a believer sins is because God, for whatever reason, did not grant the measure of grace needed for the individual to resist that temptation. That was your position in an earlier conversation, so it is not as if man's choices are made differently after salvation than before in your system as they are both equally determined by God.

 

[BobRyan]

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Paul uses an Aorist tense (quickened) and a Perfect tense (saved)

hmmm "sorta like it reads in english".

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

They are "dead IN RESPECT TO sins".

Ephesians 4 shows progression both for the saved and the lost.

Progressive state of the lost

17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.




Progressive state of the saved

1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Except when the believer chooses to sin...remember?

The believer does not have to do anything to sin as that is the automatic mode of his fallen nature. IN order not to sin, he must consciously resist sin by confessing he has no ability to overcome sin and yeild to the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is a progressive conscious determination to yeild to the Spirit and just as soon as that conscieous determination ceases so does his ability to overcome sin.

However, your response is merely a deflection instead of confronting what I said. Only the saved man can put off the flesh as the lost person is "in the flesh" entirely. No lost man can "put on" the new man because he has no such new man. Again, contextually Ephesians 4:20-24 is speaking of already saved persons and saved persons ONLY! I have opened a thread on that context and prove it.

The reason a believer sins is because God

,

No! That is your wording and clever at that. The reason a believer sins is because he has a sinful nature which will always lead to sin unless the believer resists by yeilding consciously to the Holy Spirit. His sins are NEVER God's fault as God is not indebted to you or any other believer to provide them sufficient grace to live above sin. Your argument is only valid IF God is indebted to provide sufficient grace to live above sin but how can you explain that no such sinful human being has existed, exists or will exist in this present world who has attained sinlessness in their own person? Can God provide sufficient grace to live above sin? Obviously he can as he will in glorification and the future life. Therefore, God has determinately not given sufficient grace to live above and and He is perfect just to do so as He is under no obligation to provide sufficient grace to live above sin as that contradicts the very meaning of "grace" - underserving favor! Your whole argument repudiates the very meaning of "grace" when you demand that my position makes God culpible for the sin of believers because the only way for God to be relieved of your charge is to supply sufficient grace to live above sin and it is clear He does not. By your reasoning that makes God responsible for their sin and thus "grace" is invalidated as your argument rests wholly upon accusing God of INJUSTICE if His saints sin because He does not provide sufficient grace to live above sin.

Paul's response to your kind of charge is:

Rom. 9:20 No but, O man, who are you that reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?
21 Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and another to dishonor?

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Not sure what your point was. Did you want to change the subject from the topic to my behavior. If so, you need to stick to the topic.

If your effort was to insult me, not sure if that moves the ball.

Presenting the truth is an act of love.

Redefining word after word after word in an attempt to pour Calvinism into scripture is nonsense. To attempt to give hogwash an air of credibility by draping the arguments with grammar verbiage, is disingenuous at best.

Now I have been told I "hate" Calvinists. But the truth is I hate Calvinism because I believe it to be mistaken doctrine.
I believe called means called, regenerated means regenerated, saved means saved, and fallen men, dead in sins, can understand the milk of the gospel.

If you would like to actually discuss those points, and climb down from your holier than thou hobby horse, have at it.

God bless you! I wasn't trying to insult you. Normally I don't partake in these debates because they become name calling/slandering contest. I wasn't even defending Calvinism, simply reminding you that you are called to love your neighbor as yourself and are representing Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

The believer does not have to do anything to sin as that is the automatic mode of his fallen nature.

So, even a believer is like a dog acting by instinct when he sins? When that believer commits adultery he had no choice but to sleep with the temptress? IS that what you are saying? David had no choice but to sleep with Bathsheba and have her husband killed? He didn't 'do anything' but just let the robotic preprogrammed instinct take over? I don't follow.

IN order not to sin, he must consciously resist sin by confessing he has no ability to overcome sin and yeild to the Spirit.

So, the last time you sinned, why didn't you do this instead?

The answer to that question reveals the problem of your system.

 

[The Biblicist]

So, even a believer is like a dog acting by instinct when he sins? When that believer commits adultery he had no choice but to sleep with the temptress? IS that what you are saying? David had no choice but to sleep with Bathsheba and have her husband killed? He didn't 'do anything' but just let the robotic preprogrammed instinct take over? I don't follow.

Do you know why the "law of gravity" is called a law? Do you know why the "law of sin" is called a law? Think about it!

Living the Christian life is not auto-pilot, but is paddling against the flow or going UPSTREAM by deliberation to yeild. However, GOING WITH THE FLOW always takes you DOWN STREAM and so it is with every child of God who does not actively RESISTS "the law of sin" in the flesh. Think about it!

It is NATURAL to sin, while it is SUPERNATURAL to resist sin. If you don't know this by now by experience then there is little I can say to help you.

So, the last time you sinned, why didn't you do this instead?

The last time you did not sin, who gets the credit? You or God's grace? The last time you did sin, who gets the credit? You or God? The answer to these questions reveals the problem with your system.

Is God able to keep us from falling?

 

[Skandelon]

Do you know why the "law of gravity" is called a law? Do you know why the "law of sin" is called a law? Think about it!

No, I get it. I just happen to believe God designed gravity and is sovereign over it's effects on us. But, I'm trying to see why you don't think God is sovereign over the effects of sin on mankind.

The last time you did not sin, who gets the credit? You or God's grace?

I KNEW you wouldn't answer that question...I KNEW it. I even PMed another poster and told him you wouldn't dare touch this... you can't answer it. It's not possible and I think you know it.

Tell you what...I'll answer your question, but then you have to answer my original question, deal?

 

[The Biblicist]

No, I get it. I just happen to believe God designed gravity and is sovereign over it's effects on us.

So you believe God designed sin and is sovereign over its effects on you????? Be consistent now! You can't apply to gravity what you don't apply to sin!!

I KNEW you wouldn't answer that question...I KNEW it.

I have already answered this question twice and you won't respond because with that answer I asked you a question which you never will answer. Do you believe God is capable of enabling you to live above sin?? If so, then obviously He chooses not to do so. So whose fault it is it that you cannot live above sin? God or Yours?

Tell you what...I'll answer your question, but then you have to answer my original question, deal?

I have answered this two times already. I answered it in the post you are replying to. I must give account of my sins as my sins are my fault but God is not accountable to enable me to live above sin although He could do that. Is he then to blame for my sins? No!

 

[BobRyan]

Do you know why the "law of gravity" is called a law? Do you know why the "law of sin" is called a law? Think about it!

Living the Christian life is not auto-pilot, but is paddling against the flow or going UPSTREAM by deliberation to yeild. However, GOING WITH THE FLOW always takes you DOWN STREAM and so it is with every child of God who does not actively RESISTS "the law of sin" in the flesh. Think about it!

It is NATURAL to sin, while it is SUPERNATURAL to resist sin.

Romans 8 "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

2Cor 10:4-5 "the weapons of our warfare and divinely powerful for the tearing down of fortresses".

Eph 6 "put on the full armor of God ... having done everything - stand firm"

"The mind set on the flesh is at war against God - it does not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN it" Rom 8:6-8

But that lost person IS DRAWN to Christ "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto me" John 12:32 and even Calvinists will admit that the Drawing of God enables all the choice that depravity would have disabled when it comes to choosing the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Skandelon]

So you believe God designed sin and is sovereign over its effects on you????? Be consistent now! You can't apply to gravity what you don't apply to sin!!

I believe exactly what Paul said, "God bound all men over to disobedience..." Why don't you?

And if God didn't "design the consequences" of sin, who did? Satan? Mother Nature? Where did God go while that was being decided? On vacation?

I can't believe I'm even having this discussion with a CALVINIST! The non-Calvinist is having to defend the sovereignty of God to a CALVINIST!!! Weird.

Where is Luke?

I have already answered this question twice

You responded with a question. You did not answer in this thread. In another thread you changed your answer when I pressed you on it. You started by indicating that you could have resisted but chose not to, but then you ended up saying that you didn't resist due to the fact that God didn't give you the measure of grace you needed to resist.

I have no problem answering the question you pose, because that question doesn't bother someone who believes in human responsibility and the mystery that entails.

Do you believe God is capable of enabling you to live above sin??

Sure.

If so, then obviously He chooses not to do so.

Obviously he has chosen to allow for responsibility (our ability to freely respond), not determinism.

So whose fault it is it that you cannot live above sin?

Each and every time I sin it is completely my fault because God has granted all that I need to freely resist temptation and live a holy life. I'm fully to blame for any RESPONSE I make because I am RESPONSE-ABLED.

Likewise, because I don't fall into the deception that a gift must be irresistible for the giver to get full credit for giving it, I give God full credit for the grace and provision to stand up under temptation and resist it. So, I give God full glory for his provision and grace when sin is resisted.

See how easy this is when one simply affirms responsibility?

I have answered this two times already.

Like I said, in this thread you didn't tell us specifically why you didn't resist since that was an option available to you. In another thread you indicated God didn't grant you the necessary grace to do so. I'd love clarity on that.