Reincarnation The Second Birth!

[righteousdude2]

What....

Why do you believe this?

...should I believe? Did you not take time to read over the link I sent? That should answer your question(s)! God bless and BTW - welcome to the board!

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by kyredneck
It's not a 'second birth' or 'born again', it's anothen:

Right here you have done away with the words of Jesus before you have done said all this other.

Nah, you just don't want to hear anything other than 'second birth' or 'born again'. Jesus said neither, He called it 'born from above':

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3 YLT

 

[BobRyan]

John, Chapter 3

3:Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily,
I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God.
4:Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5:Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6:That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that
which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7:Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.

If you do not believe in reincarnation the second birth,
please post the reason or reasons why you do not believe this?

Spiritual birth at conversion.

But true reincarnation at the 1Cor 15 resurrection of the saints. What John calls "the FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20:4-5.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JonC]

Let us do this the scientific way to prove our theories one way or the other.

:thumbs::thumbs: You mention doing this the “scientific way,” which would be to state your hypothesis and then test the theory - I agree that this is the best approach. To move forward in any type of examination would require you to expound on your own beliefs and continue from there. You state that your goal is to prove to yourself that what you believe is the truth and if not, then to learn the truth – which is admirable and a practice that we all should incorporate in our studies. But one does not prove a theory by merely examining all opposing theories (proving one theory wrong does not prove another theory correct). As you have a belief on the topic, the honest approach dictates that you explain your current position and then pick up the conversation.

 

[Trying2DoRight]

:thumbs::thumbs: You mention doing this the “scientific way,” which would be to state your hypothesis and then test the theory - I agree that this is the best approach. To move forward in any type of examination would require you to expound on your own beliefs and continue from there. You state that your goal is to prove to yourself that what you believe is the truth and if not, then to learn the truth – which is admirable and a practice that we all should incorporate in our studies. But one does not prove a theory by merely examining all opposing theories (proving one theory wrong does not prove another theory correct). As you have a belief on the topic, the honest approach dictates that you explain your current position and then pick up the conversation.

Post all the specifications and boundaries to what you believe that completely contains in all definitions the context to the
FIRST TIME YOU ARE BORN!

Post it here for me. Then we will proceed!

Also, establish for me when Jesus was born the FIRST TIME! He was a man so I would think that this would also apply to him and his own
life as well as ours!

If you do not know what you believe then please do not reply!


Thank you

 

[Trying2DoRight]

Spiritual birth at conversion.

But true reincarnation at the 1Cor 15 resurrection of the saints. What John calls "the FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20:4-5.

in Christ,

Bob

Post all the specifications and boundaries to what you believe that completely contains in all definitions the context to the
FIRST TIME YOU ARE BORN!

Post it here for me. Then we will proceed!

Also, establish for me when Jesus was born the FIRST TIME! He was a man so I would think that this would also apply to him and his own life
as well as ours!

If you do not know what you believe then please do not reply!


Thank you

 

[Trying2DoRight]

Nah, you just don't want to hear anything other than 'second birth' or 'born again'. Jesus said neither, He called it 'born from above':

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3 YLT

Post all the specifications and boundaries to what you believe that completely contains in all definitions the context to the
FIRST TIME YOU ARE BORN!

Post it here for me. Then we will proceed!

Also, establish for me when Jesus was born the FIRST TIME! He was a man so I would think that this would also apply to him and his own life
as well as ours!

If you do not know what you believe then please do not reply!

 

[Trying2DoRight]

...should I believe? Did you not take time to read over the link I sent? That should answer your question(s)! God bless and BTW - welcome to the board!

Post all the specifications and boundaries to what you believe that completely contains in all definitions the context to the
FIRST TIME YOU ARE BORN!

Post it here for me. Then we will proceed!

Also, establish for me when Jesus was born the FIRST TIME! He was a man so I would think that this would also apply to him and his own life
as well as ours!

If you do not know what you believe then please do not reply!

 

[kyredneck]

...If you do not know what you believe then please do not reply!

I know what I believe and what the scriptures say:

...If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God Jn 3:3 YLT

....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit. Jn 3:7,8 YLT

As in:

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

 

[Trying2DoRight]

I know what I believe and what the scriptures say:

...If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God Jn 3:3 YLT

....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit. Jn 3:7,8 YLT

As in:

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4:26

But First...
Please establish here on the thread by posting what you believe that completely contains in all definitions the context,specifications and parameters to the...FIRST TIME YOU ARE BORN!

If you do not know what you believe to the point you cannot do so then please do not reply!

I see no point in discussing "born from above" with you if you are not able to discuss with me "Born from below".

I liken that unto those who said to Nebuchadnezzar... "tell us your dream then we will interpret it"...I say no tell me what born from below means then you can tell me what born from above means!

 

[kyredneck]

Jn 3:3-5
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water...first birth
Spirit...born again, new birth, regeneration, etc.
It is still "again", by definition.

Quote The Archangel:

"In this context, the verb γεννάω is passive and affects the understanding of the adverb, ἄνωθεν.

What is more, Nicodemus' response shows that he understood the reference, primarily, to be "born again" --since he inquires of Jesus about the possibilities of entering "as second time" into his mother's womb.

The point of the interaction between Jesus and Nicodemus is that Nicodemus, "The Teacher of Israel," should have understood what "being born again from above," due to the passive verb, meant. Of course, he didn't. He thought it meant that some gynecological miracle would have to be performed. Jesus was referring to being born from above--regeneration.

Again, the key thing here is the passive verbs. Many people have taken Jesus' statement in John 3:3 to be a command "Get born again." But that's not what He's saying. He's saying God must do something to you--HE must born you again. So, the borning again comes from above, from God Himself.

Therefore, it is entirely proper to say "Born again from above"...."

 

[BobRyan]

I see no point in discussing "born from above" with you if you are not able to discuss with me "Born from below".

I liken that unto those who said to Nebuchadnezzar... "tell us your dream then we will interpret it"...I say no tell me what born from below means then you can tell me what born from above means!

I find it curious that the first birth - is even called into question at all.

Why claim that humans being born is some sort of doubted speculated event?

Why not just accept the physical birth part as "the easy part" and move on?

 

[Trying2DoRight]

I find it curious that the first birth - is even called into question at all.

Why claim that humans being born is some sort of doubted speculated event?

Why not just accept the physical birth part as "the easy part" and move on?

I have already answered this question. But for you I will make an exception..but...you must establish a starting point ...be it as it may, anywhere you like...but...you must prove your starting point is the truth! Not just another one of your opinions(because that is what you want to believe) that has none to no merit due to the many flaws and uncertainties that are very obvious to the naked eye!

 

[kyredneck]

...I see no point in discussing "born from above" with you if you are not able to discuss with me "Born from below"....

Well to be honest with you, I consider most if not all aspects of my 'birth from below' to be vanity; Paul went so far as to count it all as dung. Not really much there to talk about.

...you must establish a starting point ...be it as it may, anywhere you like...but...you must prove your starting point is the truth!...

....rejoice that your names are written in heaven. Lu 10:20

....written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. Rev 13:8

How does "from the foundation of the world" grab you for a starting point? Or "BEFORE the foundation of the world"?:

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: Eph 1:4

 

[Trying2DoRight]

Well to be honest with you, I consider most if not all aspects of my 'birth from below' to be vanity; Paul went so far as to count it all as dung. Not really much there to talk about.



....rejoice that your names are written in heaven. Lu 10:20

....written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. Rev 13:8

How does "from the foundation of the world" grab you for a starting point? Or "BEFORE the foundation of the world"?:

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: Eph 1:4

This is predestination you are telling me about. Do you believe in predestination?

 

[kyredneck]

This is predestination you are telling me about. Do you believe in predestination?

Absolutely! Don't you?:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 2

 

[Trying2DoRight]

Absolutely! Don't you?:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 2

Does this mean you believe, that all things are predetermined before they occur or take place!

 

[JonC]

Post all the specifications and boundaries to what you believe that completely contains in all definitions the context to the
FIRST TIME YOU ARE BORN!

Post it here for me. Then we will proceed!

Also, establish for me when Jesus was born the FIRST TIME! He was a man so I would think that this would also apply to him and his own
life as well as ours!

If you do not know what you believe then please do not reply!

Thank you

Your reply is not logical. You state that you desire to examine your own beliefs yet seem to want others to post all of the specifications and boundaries of their position while abstaining from posting the belief that is truly to be examined (your own). If everyone here posts their view, and if you are able to deny any truth to their claims… it still does not justify your own position. You say that you know what you believe…yet it appears you do not or are at least unable to articulate your position.

As the declared intent of this thread is to answer/test your belief (as per your comment in post # 13) and you want to pursue it “scientifically” (as per your comment in post #19) an honest response would be for you to list all the specifications and boundaries to what you believe that completely encompasses your belief of reincarnation as biblical doctrine. Anything else is dishonest.

That said, perhaps the first step in a defense of reincarnation would be to demonstrate biblical support for pre-incarnate man. The passage you quote in the OP will not do - it specifically deals with being born of the Spirit (not reincarnation or even incarnation, but of the Spirit). Here the example of Christ will not do (as, while existing prior to incarnation, he became “flesh” incarnate rather than reincarnate). After his death on the cross he was resurrected (not reincarnated into another body of flesh). Our hope is in resurrection rather than reincarnation. One may say that we will receive new bodies, but this is when all is made new – not in this present world – which would exclude reincarnation from defining this moment as well. The “second life” which is to come is not reincarnation but rather resurrection and glorification. The “second birth” is literally “born from above” (as kyredneck points out), and has absolutely nothing to do with reincarnation (it is born of the Spirit not flesh). But the bottom line is that it is up to you to establish on the thread the doctrine that you are examining – rather than post a vague question and tread water from there (which is dishonest based on your inquiry to test your own belief). In short, there is absolutely nothing to examine here – just vague questions from a man who seems unable to articulate what is an obscure notion rather than a worked out doctrine.

Do you believe that the “second birth” is a reincarnation (that the passage you state refers to being born once again in the “flesh”? Why or why not? Do you know what you believe?

 

[kyredneck]

Does this mean you believe, that all things are predetermined before they occur or take place!

No! The word is used only four times in the bible and is always in reference to God calling out a people for His own possession, NOT to events in this temporal realm.

 

[BobRyan]

I have already answered this question. But for you I will make an exception..but...you must establish a starting point ...be it as it may, anywhere you like...but...you must prove your starting point is the truth! Not just another one of your opinions(because that is what you want to believe) that has none to no merit due to the many flaws and uncertainties that are very obvious to the naked eye!

Fine then -- all people a born "human" - body soul and spirit which in places like Matt 10:28 is summarized as just body and soul. (Spirit and Soul may just be two different ways of describing (2 different aspects of) the same thing if Matt 10:28 is correct)