Featured "given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

Wouldn't that hurt you? But which is it? An arm, leg, ankle, collarbone? :laugh: j/k with ya!!

Never said it wasn't drawn. When God hooks that "fish", it's coming to shore...case closed...:thumbsup:

Well, that's better than bad grief...:smilewinkgrin:

How so?

Look, whenever God blesses me to preach His word, I preach it to all that are in the house. The gospel I preach to them is a sincere offer to "be ye reconciled to God", and I leave no one out. Now, if they reject the gospel, my hands are clean, and it's solely their fault. I told them what they need to do on their part. The gospel affects them one way or the other...they either accept it or reject it. The goats want nothing to do with it. Even the sheep that haven't been moved by God at that time, want nothing to do with it. They are still in their fallen state. However, when God does His part in quickening them, He gives them a new heart and takes out the stony one. He annoints their eyes to see, their ears to hear..."let him that has ears to hear"...that they will come to Him to seek refuge. The gospel either brings conviction or condemnation.

Brother, I am doing the very best I know how to explain my position to you, but your front door is closed shut. I can't debate a closed door. :laugh:

 

The biggest misconception about the gospel, imo, is the target being aimed at. One side says the call goes world wide, to any and all, and leaves no one out. The other side says it's also world wide, but to bring the sheep out from the goats. I believe the latter to be the true positionsmilewinkgrin: :thumbsup, and here's why.

Even those of the opposing view admit that not everyone ever born will hear the name of Jesus Christ in their life from birth----->death. They will even admit that they can't believe in someone they know nothing about....and I agree with that(Romans 10). Now, if some die never knowing that Jesus Christ ever existed, and according to their view that they can't believe in Jesus since they've never heard of Him, then how can John 12:32 mean "every single person that has lived since His ascension"? It can't, and their own beliefs thwart them and their belief that God did draw everyone w/o exception.

The gospel is a call that brings the sheep out from the goats. Here is what Jesus stated in John 15:19: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." Then Peter confirms this later on in 2 Peter 2:9-10: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." God has a chosen generation from the first Adam until the last sheep is gathered into the sheepfold. Not one of them will suffer the eternal punishment in the lake of fire.


Now the gospel to the goats is needful, because it only confirms their non-existant(sp?) walk with God, which is something they've never had, never will have, and will never desire to have a walk with Him. It only confirms their distain for God and His work. Paul wrote this in 1 Cor. 1:18: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." They want nothing to do with it. They have no desire to "be ye reconciled to God". The gospel is sent to them, yet they shun it. It's solely their fault, and not God's, for rejecting it. It only seals their eternal state. Then in 1 Cor. 1:21, Paul stated this: "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." The gospel calls the sheep from amongst the goats. It confirms, it seals both their eternal states. One to everlasting joy, the other to everlasting torment and shame.

 

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convicted1

Yes ...you and biblicist have clearly outlined truth that These two cannot welcome right now.They are not wanting truth, but just to resist.:thumbs:

You cannot make a blind man see a rainbow:thumbs:You can explain it....but if he refuses to listen...he will not even get the idea.A blind man needs Divine healing for his eyes that cannot see.

 

I don't think they "won't welcome the truth", it's just they have a differing view on how God interacts with His people...

 

To me it is more like you are trying to explain away what the scriptures really say.

We are talking about drawing. You and Biblicist insist everyone that is drawn will come to Jesus, which means to believe and be saved. But then you show a parable by Jesus himself where not everyone who is drawn comes to Jesus and is saved. The "bad" fish are not believers, they are cast out. Yet they were drawn just like the good fish.

This parable refutes your view easily, and I think you are 100% aware of it, but you are trying to explain it away. That is why I said you know better.

Now all those fish came to shore, but not all of them were saved.

Isn't that the truth?

 

Good thing you are not an actor, you would starve to death.

"Our friend does not welcome the truth, his eyes have been blinded"

Oh brother, how corny can you get??

Being a Christian is not an act. You aren't fooling me, you sure aren't going to fool Jesus.

 

Baloney, John 6:65 does not teach they were never drawn. What it does teach is that they never received and believed the word of God Jesus spoke of in vs. 63.

Jesus is not speaking of persons being given in vs. 65, he is speaking of "it" being given, which points back to "the words that I speak unto you" in verse 63.

And again, this is clarified in chapter 17 where Jesus tells us directly what he gave his disciples.

Jhn 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Here again Jesus speaks of the persons given to him, and says they have "kept thy word". And then in verse 8 he tells us he gave them the words his Father gave to him.

It does not say he gave them faith. In fact, Jesus gives his disciples credit for both receiving and believing the words he gave them.

Therefore, no man can come to Jesus unless "it" (the word of God) were given them.

 

C1,
Certainly God can overcome any resistance as He pleases....I am looking at it in a general sense.....You and biblicist take time to clearly present solid biblical teaching...the response is this-

this seems to indicate a rebelliousness that is not in check.....:laugh: Then instead of biblical teaching....we get novelties, and the suggestion of man saving himself by his works....day after day.:love2:

 

This is a ridiculous argument. If Jesus wanted to tell us men were not drawn in John 6:65, he could have plainly said so. God doesn't need you to insert words for him that aren't shown in the text.

How can you consider yourself a student of scripture if you insert your own words into scripture like this?

Whether you like it or not, nowhere do the scriptures say that all men drawn shall come to Jesus. If the scriptures said that, then I, and Skandelon, and Bob, and Van would all agree with you. Whatever God says is fine by me, but I don't go for fellows like you who insert their presuppositions into scripture.

 

Its not HOW long, or how often sinners hear the Gospel, its when and if the Holy spirit opens their herats and minds to it, for those whom he comes to do that for, the Gospel accomplish its God ordained task to save thiose sinners, for the Spirit takes those woreds and grans them understanding of their need to be saved, and that Jesus is Lord, and that the MUSt and WILl call upon His name!

NOMNE surrender their will to get saved, its the Lord Himself doing his divine work to open sinners herats and mind to that mission!

 

I didn't say one word about how often and long a person must hear the gospel to believe. I believed the gospel the first time I heard it and received Jesus right away, but many people resist the gospel for years. They will tell you they understood they needed to get saved, and they knew they would go to hell without Christ, but they might have had a sin they did not want to give up, so they did not receive Jesus at that time. This shows a person can be drawn but resist.

But you are wrong about sinners not surrendering, Paul was resisting the Holy Ghost, Jesus said so. But on the day Jesus appeared to him, he quit resisting and obeyed the gospel.

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

I personally believe Paul knew who was speaking to him, and that his question "Who art thou, Lord?" was insincere. He knew very well who was speaking to him.

Paul was being drawn, he was being enticed, but he was resisting. But after Jesus clearly identified himself, and told Paul he was resisting, Paul gave up and asked Jesus, "Lord, what wilt thou have me do?" This is when Paul was saved.

So don't tell me the scriptures do not show a person surrendering their will to the Lord.

 

Nope. I try to explain nothing away, but to expound upon it. You have every right to accept or reject my posts and their ideas.

The gospel is to be preached to any and all by God called preachers. None of these preachers know who the sheep and goats are, yet we are commanded by Jesus Himself, to preach it to every creature. God uses it to call His sheep out from amongst the goats. The goats have no desire to "be ye reconciled to God", as they have their self-righteousness to make them feel good about themselves. You've seen many make a "confession of grace", yet their walk and talk proves otherwise. Some keep living the "church lifestyle" while living ungodly, and others walk out of the church and have their name erased off the church book. The gospel appealed to their flesh and they received it with joy, yet in time, they had nothing holding them steadfast, and they weren't what they professed they were(Matthew 13).

Again, the gospel entices the flesh as well. It takes God to do the internal work and quicken them, and this causes a saving faith to come to fruition. The external stimulus comes from the gospel, but if God doesn't do an internal stimulus, they'll want nothing to do with Him.

 

Bumping this so that it doesn't go w/o a response....

Channeling my inner "The Biblicist" and "BobRyan"....:smilewinkgrin:

 

paul was Onew whom the lord had already chosen to be his chief agent untot he gentiles, and he surrendered his will to Jesus/God, AFTER trhe Holy spirit openned his mind and spiritual eyes to who jesus was, as he called Him Lod, NONE do that until/unless enabled to by the Holy Spirit!

Do sinners surrender wills to God, yes, but ONLY after God works thru and on them to have them such, as sinners in natural state refuse to bow to God!

 

Yes, in John 6:65 Jesus is referring back to John 6:44 when he said that no man could come to him unless he were drawn by the Father. But you can't exclude verse 45 which explains HOW they were drawn. The were drawn by the word of God, this is how they were "taught" and "heard" and "learned" from the Father.

And in John 6:63 Jesus again speaks of "the words I speak unto you", this is the "it" that was given in verse 65.

And for about the third time, John 17 supports all of this. Here Jesus speaks of those persons given to him, and says "they have kept thy word". They weren't zapped with faith or knowledge, they heard the word of God and believed it.

Then Jesus plainly tells us what was given them, "the words that thou gavest me".

Jesus didn't zap them with faith, he gave them the word of God. This is what also drew men in Jhn 6:44-45, and Jhn 6:63.

Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Again, Jesus didn't zap these disciples with knowledge or faith, he gave them the words his Father gave him, and THEY received them and believed them.

This is why Jesus said no man can come to him unless "it" (the word of God) is given them.

Nobody can come to Jesus without the word of God. The gospel draws all men. But only those who sincerely hear and learn, those who receive and believe God's word will come to Jesus.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus gave the words his Father gave him to his disciples, but some did not believe, they did not receive God's word. Therefore, no man can come to Jesus unless IT (the word of God) was given unto them of his Father.

You are trying to convince us that God gave faith to the disciples when that is not said, and you are completely ignoring that Jesus gave his Father's words to his disciples which is directly told us in scripture.

What kind of scholar inserts his own presuppositions into scripture and at the same time ignores what the scriptures directly tells him?

Not very wise.