Featured "given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

God's foreknowledge isn't equal to man's. God's foreknowledge is based on what He decreed.

They were chosen by God by sanctification AND belief of the truth. They were sanctified...set aside...by God.

No, God chose us before/from the foundation of the world. They only thing we choose is sin. God changes our desires that we then choose Him.

See above comment...

Calvinism is very true....

Exactly. They which are truly saved will never die lost. They are firmly in His grasp, their names engravened in His hands because they are His.

Brother, Calvinism isn't what you think it is. I honestly thought I knew. I thought I had it by the "short hairs". But I found out I wasn't within 1,000 miles of what it actually teaches. I used to call it a doctrine of devils, but I was the one who was wrong...

 

Yes, but unlike you I do not isolate vs. 44 from 45 which explains HOW men are drawn, which is through the word of God which teaches the man if he sincerely hears and learns from God. God does the teaching, but the man must listen and learn.

I disagree, Jesus is saying no man can come unless "it" were given him. And what did Jesus give them? The "words" his Father gave to him as I have repeatedly shown in John 17. This is also what is shown in John 6:45, men learn from the Father when they hear his "words". Men aren't zapped with knowledge. You weren't walking along one day and God zapped you with the gospel, you either read it in the Bible, or someone like a preacher told you the gospel from the Bible. This is how all men learn the gospel and necessary to come to Jesus. How can they believe in whom they have not heard? (Rom 10:14)

You are not succeeding.

Being drawn has nothing to do with being a legitimate or false disciple, being drawn is what God does. The unbeliever will resist, but the fact that he resists shows he is being drawn. This is what Stephen preached.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Here Stephen says the mass of Jews generally were resisting the Holy Ghost. How did they do that? They killed God's messengers who gave his "words" to the people. These prophets repeatedly came to the people and called them to turn from their sins and to trust in the "Just One", but they rebelled against God. They heard God's words, but they did not sincerely listen and learn, except for a few.

The men in John 6 were doing the same thing, they were rebelling against God's word that was being given them by Jesus. They were absolutely being drawn, but they resisted the Holy Ghost like their fathers before them.

 

Would you care to show scripture that supports this view?

And because they believed the truth. But God knew this before they were ever born, that is what foreknowledge is.

I know that is what Calvinism teaches you, but it is not what the scriptures say. They scriptures show many that "gladly received his word".

God chose us before we even existed Willis, so how could we choose ourselves?

No, Calvinism is VERY FALSE.

If Calvinism is true it would be impossible to "lose" someone and you know it. This shows that Jesus did not hold to Calvinism, his words do not make sense in your system.

You still do not know Calvinism, otherwise you would recognize how contrary it is to scripture.

 

Does God "decree blasphemy against His name"??

Does God "decree that children be molested??""

Does God "decree that children be burned alive as a sacrifice to Molech"?

There is such horrible violence that is reported in the news every now and then that we cannot even bare to read, much less witness, much less be a victim of. Is it your claim that demons are under order by God to do as they do? Is HE their commander in chief? Are they simply "following orders"??

Hopefully your defense of Calvinism will not put all this at "the decree of God".

in Christ,

Bob

 

in John 6:65 Jesus is referring back to John 6:44 when he said that no man could come to him unless he were drawn by the Father only because the drawing is precursor to the giving in that progression.

God draws all - but all do not come to Christ so all are not given. Thus in 6:64 we have the foreknowledge of God as the context for 6:65.

God foreknows who will see, and believe, and come to Christ and be taught of God.



Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you,that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Those "given to Christ" are in that highly qualified list even by Calvinist standards.

Those lost to whom it is "given by the Father" - are also in that highly qualified list - according to Calvinism. The question is do Arminians view that as the highly qualified list - or as the more general case where we have the "drawing of ALL mankind".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Here's the thing, Brother Bob, nothing is beyond His control. God does not approve of rape, murder, incest/molesting, stealing, beating, lying, etc. Yet, He has allowed it all to go on even to this day. If He wanted to, He could stop it thisquick, yet He's chosen to let it go rampant. If He did not stop it from coming to fruition, then He has decreed it to come to pass, whether it is by an active decree...pushing it along...or passive decree...allowing it to happen w/o stopping it.

 

Bumping again to hopefully get a response.....

 

Matt 24 "THIS Gospel shall be preached in all the world and THEN shall the end come"

There is a specific form of the Gospel - the one being preached by Christ in Matt 24 that will go to all the world and when that happens - the world ends.

But then there is the "DRAWING of aLL" which is not limited to "a certain degree of knowledge". It is work done as a benefit of the Gospel but is not a "Complete Gospel information packet" that goes to all. Rather it is the work of the Holy Spirit in "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 - and they are then 'Without excuse' who reject the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Those without Bible information can still respond "instinctively" as we are told in Rom 2:13-16 "instinctively doing the works of the law, showing the law written on their heart" -- which is done only by the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Has everyone that has ever been born since Christ's ascension heard the name of Jesus Christ?

 

I don't think they have. Certainly most of the saints before the time of Christ never heard the name "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ of Nazareth" etc.

It is not the "information packet" -- it is the Holy Spirit that saves which is why we have the statement in Rom 2:13-16 about those who are saved who never got the info packet.

in Christ,

Bob

 

How can they know/believe in whom they've never heard about?

 

many non cal bethren mistakenly see God being Sovereign as meaning that he direct caused and determined Himself ALL things that happened, but the truth is that he determined the end results based upon BOTH what he determined directly AND working in and thru decisions and actions third parties undertake, and also that when Adam chose to sin, he brought in the curse of the creation from God, so now have 'natural disasters"...

For did God cause hitler to be deom possessed, and try to exterminate the jewish peoples, think not, that wotk satan permitted to do that by God, but God used that to have the world grant isreal their nationhood as a direct result of the Holocaust!

"What satan did for evil, God turned around for good!"

 

Believe its in the book of Acts, that the recorded down message is thatALl thsoe who were apointed beforehand by God unto ternal life heard the message and turned to jesus and got saved...

Shows us that God the father had determined to save individuals from eternity past, had jesus deatha toning for them by name, and thathe electe dthem out to receive jesus from the past, but he also completed/confirmed election status by saving them right when they heard the message that day!

 

And if your interpretation were true, God could have easily said "all that are drawn shall come", but he didn't do that, did he?

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

And you seem unable to distinguish between the words "given" and "drawn", they are not the same word, and they do not mean the same thing. They are not synonyms either.

No, no, no. The scripture does not say that God giving these persons causes them to come. It simply says all that the Father gives Jesus shall come to him. It doesn't say why or how.

You have a bad habit of reading into scripture what is not said. That is a recipe for error.

Again, NO. There is nothing in this scripture to support your view here. Yes, all that the Father gives Jesus shall come to him, but it doesn't say why or how. Yes, no man can come to Jesus unless he is drawn, but it doesn't say every man drawn shall come.

Yes, Jesus said no man can come to him unless "it" were given him, but this is clearly the word of God shown in verses 44, 63 and Jhn 17:8. You cannot show one word of scripture that says God gave them faith, but the scripture clearly says Jesus gave them the words his Father gave to him.

You can't simply make up your own interpretations of scripture.

 

ALL whom that the death of jesus atoned for will be drawn unto him to be saved, and ALL shall come to Him, receive Him, and get saved!

There are NO sinners that the Father gave to Jesus from eternity past that will in this present time say to him"thanks, but I decided to not be saved by you now!"