"given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

[convicted1]

Give me a break Willis,

Wouldn't that hurt you? But which is it? An arm, leg, ankle, collarbone? :laugh: j/k with ya!!

you can't claim that a fish that was pulled to shore in a net was not drawn.

Never said it wasn't drawn. When God hooks that "fish", it's coming to shore...case closed...:thumbsup:

Good grief,

Well, that's better than bad grief...:smilewinkgrin:

you are not being reasonable now.

How so?

As I have said several times now, you have to be intellectually dishonest to deny the scriptures show people are drawn who do not come to Christ.

Look, whenever God blesses me to preach His word, I preach it to all that are in the house. The gospel I preach to them is a sincere offer to "be ye reconciled to God", and I leave no one out. Now, if they reject the gospel, my hands are clean, and it's solely their fault. I told them what they need to do on their part. The gospel affects them one way or the other...they either accept it or reject it. The goats want nothing to do with it. Even the sheep that haven't been moved by God at that time, want nothing to do with it. They are still in their fallen state. However, when God does His part in quickening them, He gives them a new heart and takes out the stony one. He annoints their eyes to see, their ears to hear..."let him that has ears to hear"...that they will come to Him to seek refuge. The gospel either brings conviction or condemnation.

You are better than this Willis.

Brother, I am doing the very best I know how to explain my position to you, but your front door is closed shut. I can't debate a closed door. :laugh:

 

[convicted1]

The biggest misconception about the gospel, imo, is the target being aimed at. One side says the call goes world wide, to any and all, and leaves no one out. The other side says it's also world wide, but to bring the sheep out from the goats. I believe the latter to be the true positionsmilewinkgrin: :thumbsup, and here's why.

Even those of the opposing view admit that not everyone ever born will hear the name of Jesus Christ in their life from birth----->death. They will even admit that they can't believe in someone they know nothing about....and I agree with that(Romans 10). Now, if some die never knowing that Jesus Christ ever existed, and according to their view that they can't believe in Jesus since they've never heard of Him, then how can John 12:32 mean "every single person that has lived since His ascension"? It can't, and their own beliefs thwart them and their belief that God did draw everyone w/o exception.

The gospel is a call that brings the sheep out from the goats. Here is what Jesus stated in John 15:19: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." Then Peter confirms this later on in 2 Peter 2:9-10: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." God has a chosen generation from the first Adam until the last sheep is gathered into the sheepfold. Not one of them will suffer the eternal punishment in the lake of fire.


Now the gospel to the goats is needful, because it only confirms their non-existant(sp?) walk with God, which is something they've never had, never will have, and will never desire to have a walk with Him. It only confirms their distain for God and His work. Paul wrote this in 1 Cor. 1:18: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." They want nothing to do with it. They have no desire to "be ye reconciled to God". The gospel is sent to them, yet they shun it. It's solely their fault, and not God's, for rejecting it. It only seals their eternal state. Then in 1 Cor. 1:21, Paul stated this: "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." The gospel calls the sheep from amongst the goats. It confirms, it seals both their eternal states. One to everlasting joy, the other to everlasting torment and shame.

 

[Iconoclast]

e

convicted1

Brother, I am doing the very best I know how to explain my position to you, but your front door is closed shut. I can't debate a closed door. :laugh:

Yes ...you and biblicist have clearly outlined truth that These two cannot welcome right now.They are not wanting truth, but just to resist.:thumbs:

You cannot make a blind man see a rainbow:thumbs:You can explain it....but if he refuses to listen...he will not even get the idea.A blind man needs Divine healing for his eyes that cannot see.

 

[convicted1]

convicted1

Yes ...you and biblicist have clearly outlined truth that These two cannot welcome right now.They are not wanting truth, but just to resist.:thumbs:

You cannot make a blind man see a rainbow:thumbs:You can explain it....but if he refuses to listen...he will not even get the idea.A blind man needs Divine healing for his eyes that cannot see.

I don't think they "won't welcome the truth", it's just they have a differing view on how God interacts with His people...

 

[Winman]

Wouldn't that hurt you? But which is it? An arm, leg, ankle, collarbone? :laugh: j/k with ya!!

Never said it wasn't drawn. When God hooks that "fish", it's coming to shore...case closed...:thumbsup:

Well, that's better than bad grief...:smilewinkgrin:


How so?

Look, whenever God blesses me to preach His word, I preach it to all that are in the house. The gospel I preach to them is a sincere offer to "be ye reconciled to God", and I leave no one out. Now, if they reject the gospel, my hands are clean, and it's solely their fault. I told them what they need to do on their part. The gospel affects them one way or the other...they either accept it or reject it. The goats want nothing to do with it. Even the sheep that haven't been moved by God at that time, want nothing to do with it. They are still in their fallen state. However, when God does His part in quickening them, He gives them a new heart and takes out the stony one. He annoints their eyes to see, their ears to hear..."let him that has ears to hear"...that they will come to Him to seek refuge. The gospel either brings conviction or condemnation.


Brother, I am doing the very best I know how to explain my position to you, but your front door is closed shut. I can't debate a closed door. :laugh:

To me it is more like you are trying to explain away what the scriptures really say.

We are talking about drawing. You and Biblicist insist everyone that is drawn will come to Jesus, which means to believe and be saved. But then you show a parable by Jesus himself where not everyone who is drawn comes to Jesus and is saved. The "bad" fish are not believers, they are cast out. Yet they were drawn just like the good fish.

This parable refutes your view easily, and I think you are 100% aware of it, but you are trying to explain it away. That is why I said you know better.

Now all those fish came to shore, but not all of them were saved.

Isn't that the truth?

 

[Winman]

convicted1

Yes ...you and biblicist have clearly outlined truth that These two cannot welcome right now.They are not wanting truth, but just to resist.:thumbs:

You cannot make a blind man see a rainbow:thumbs:You can explain it....but if he refuses to listen...he will not even get the idea.A blind man needs Divine healing for his eyes that cannot see.

Good thing you are not an actor, you would starve to death.

"Our friend does not welcome the truth, his eyes have been blinded"

Oh brother, how corny can you get??

Being a Christian is not an act. You aren't fooling me, you sure aren't going to fool Jesus.

 

[Winman]

HOw is that? I am the one who introduced that very parable to explain my position that the gospel calls all whose physical ears hear it both "good" and "bad." With that very parable I pointed out that not all who respond to the gospel call have been drawn by the Father as illustrated in John 6:64-65.

Those in John 6:64 had heard the gospel, been taught the gospel and responded by making a profession and submitting to baptism - thus becoming "his disciples" and yet they had never been drawn by the Father - Jn. 6:65. You can deny the obvious (and you will) but it does not change the fact that verse 65 is given as a direct explanation for the unbelief of those in verse 64.

Baloney, John 6:65 does not teach they were never drawn. What it does teach is that they never received and believed the word of God Jesus spoke of in vs. 63.

Jesus is not speaking of persons being given in vs. 65, he is speaking of "it" being given, which points back to "the words that I speak unto you" in verse 63.

And again, this is clarified in chapter 17 where Jesus tells us directly what he gave his disciples.

Jhn 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Here again Jesus speaks of the persons given to him, and says they have "kept thy word". And then in verse 8 he tells us he gave them the words his Father gave to him.

It does not say he gave them faith. In fact, Jesus gives his disciples credit for both receiving and believing the words he gave them.

Therefore, no man can come to Jesus unless "it" (the word of God) were given them.

 

[The Biblicist]

Baloney, John 6:65 does not teach they were never drawn.

Jesus is recalling in verse 65 what he told them in verse 44 to be applied to someone in the immediate context and if it is not "some" in verse 64 then who is it?

 

[The Biblicist]

No not in John 6:44 do we find "all that the Father draws will come"

Not in John 6:45 either do we find "all that the Father draws will come"

To find that statement - you are quoting "you".

Jesus makes his statement in verse 44 - correct?

Jesus quotes scripture in verse 45a to support his statement - correct?

You are saying the supportive scripture has nothing to do with his statement whereas I am saying the supportive scripture supports his statement and that "draw" in his statement equals "all taught of God" in his supportive scripture. That is simple common sense or else the scripture has nothing to do with his statement. You admit the supportive scriptures ("prophets" plural) has to do with the New Covenant and thus "all" refers to "all" who are partakers of the New Covenant which the supportive scripture defines as "children" of God. Hence, "all" in the supportive scriptures equal "all" in John 6:37-39 or all those given by the Father to come to the Son - NONE OF WHICH FAIL TO COME - thus all must have been drawn - NONE FAIL TO BE SAVED - thus the "all" the covenant children of God.

My position is consistent. The "all" of Jn. 6:45a/Isaiah 54:13/Jer.31:33-34/Heb. 8/10 are the "children of God" and NONE given fail to come and none given are lost according to John 6:39 and so the "all" of John 6:37-39 are the "all" of John 6:45a which are the same "all" of Isaiah 54:13 and the same "all" from "least...to the greatest" in Jeremiah 31:33-34.

If none can come but those drawn then since "all" given do come they must be "all" drawn that were given.

Since grammatically John 6:37 DOES NOT SAY "all that come SHALL BE GIVEN" but rather "all the Father gives SHALL COME" then the grammatical cause of coming is being given just as the grammatical cause of coming is being drawn. Thus being given and being drawn are inseperable as they both result in coming. God does not give what he does not draw because both equally come and "ALL" given are thus "ALL" drawn" just as "ALL taught of God" are ALL drawn because "taught" equals "draw" and "ALL shall be taught of God" just as "ALL given shall come."

Jesus is still speaking to the very same audiance about the very same "ALL" in John 6:37-39 as He is in John 6:44-45 because the "ALL" in John 6:37-39 are drawn because NONE fail to come.

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus makes his statement in verse 44 - correct?

Jesus quotes scripture in verse 45a to support his statement - correct?

You are saying the supportive scripture has nothing to do with his statement whereas I am saying the supportive scripture supports his statement and that "draw" in his statement equals "all taught of God" in his supportive scripture. That is simple common sense or else the scripture has nothing to do with his statement. You admit the supportive scriptures ("prophets" plural) has to do with the New Covenant and thus "all" refers to "all" who are partakers of the New Covenant which the supportive scripture defines as "children" of God. Hence, "all" in the supportive scriptures equal "all" in John 6:37-39 or all those given by the Father to come to the Son - NONE OF WHICH FAIL TO COME - thus all must have been drawn - NONE FAIL TO BE SAVED - thus the "all" the covenant children of God.

My position is consistent. The "all" of Jn. 6:45a/Isaiah 54:13/Jer.31:33-34/Heb. 8/10 are the "children of God" and NONE given fail to come and none given are lost according to John 6:39 and so the "all" of John 6:37-39 are the "all" of John 6:45a which are the same "all" of Isaiah 54:13 and the same "all" from "least...to the greatest" in Jeremiah 31:33-34.

If none can come but those drawn then since "all" given do come they must be "all" drawn that were given.

Since grammatically John 6:37 DOES NOT SAY "all that come SHALL BE GIVEN" but rather "all the Father gives SHALL COME" then the grammatical cause of coming is being given just as the grammatical cause of coming is being drawn. Thus being given and being drawn are inseperable as they both result in coming. God does not give what he does not draw because both equally come and "ALL" given are thus "ALL" drawn" just as "ALL taught of God" are ALL drawn because "taught" equals "draw" and "ALL shall be taught of God" just as "ALL given shall come."

Jesus is still speaking to the very same audiance about the very same "ALL" in John 6:37-39 as He is in John 6:44-45 because the "ALL" in John 6:37-39 are drawn because NONE fail to come.

If no man can come except drawn by the Father and since ALL given by the Father do in fact come then being drawn must be inseparable in the act of being given as coming is the same consequence.

Therefore, since being drawn must be CAUSAL for all coming to Christ therefore being given must also be CAUSAL for all coming to Christ as the text DOES NOT SAY "all that come to Christ SHALL BE given by the Father to the Son" but that is how you ultimately interpret that text which is proven to be a false interpretation as being given stands in the very same relationship to those coming with being drawn which is necessarily causal for all coming to Christ.

You argue that all who shall come to Christ in John 6:37-39 are given by the Father based upon the Father merely looking down in history to see who will come to him and this is the cause for selecting who will be given to the Son. Thus you reverse the grammatically stated cause provided in the text of John 6:37 that demands being given is the cause for all that "shall" come. However, the fact remains that coming cannot be the cause for the Father giving anyone to the Son because "no man can come except the father draw" and thus drawing is the necessary cause for any man coming to Christ and that is not due to merely looking down to see what happens but is the work of the Father that necessarily must PRECEDE anyone coming to Christ. So "FORSEEN" interpretation does not overturn that the first cause for coming is found in the work of the Father instead of any the sinner as your interpretation attempts to prove. Drawing is the cause of coming and thus "all" the Father gives do in fact come and so in the act of giving is inseparably the act of drawing as coming is the equal outcome of both giving and drawing. The cause for coming is found in a preceding work of the Father any way you cut it, thus the grammatically stated cause in John 6:37 is NOT "all that come shall be given" but "all that the Father gives SHALL COME" because in the act of giving is drawing or else coming is impossible.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't think they "won't welcome the truth", it's just they have a differing view on how God interacts with His people...

C1,
Certainly God can overcome any resistance as He pleases....I am looking at it in a general sense.....You and biblicist take time to clearly present solid biblical teaching...the response is this-

Baloney

this seems to indicate a rebelliousness that is not in check.....:laugh: Then instead of biblical teaching....we get novelties, and the suggestion of man saving himself by his works....day after day.:love2:

 

[Winman]

Jesus is recalling in verse 65 what he told them in verse 44 to be applied to someone in the immediate context and if it is not "some" in verse 64 then who is it?

This is a ridiculous argument. If Jesus wanted to tell us men were not drawn in John 6:65, he could have plainly said so. God doesn't need you to insert words for him that aren't shown in the text.

How can you consider yourself a student of scripture if you insert your own words into scripture like this?

Whether you like it or not, nowhere do the scriptures say that all men drawn shall come to Jesus. If the scriptures said that, then I, and Skandelon, and Bob, and Van would all agree with you. Whatever God says is fine by me, but I don't go for fellows like you who insert their presuppositions into scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

I simply believe that every man who hears the gospel is drawn by it. As I said before, many persons will tell you the gospel pulled and tugged at their heart, sometimes for years before they finally surrendered and accepted Christ.

And I asked you if that wasn't your very experience?

Please answer, isn't this your experience? You were pulled and tugged by the gospel for a period of time before you trusted Christ?

Please answer this question.

Its not HOW long, or how often sinners hear the Gospel, its when and if the Holy spirit opens their herats and minds to it, for those whom he comes to do that for, the Gospel accomplish its God ordained task to save thiose sinners, for the Spirit takes those woreds and grans them understanding of their need to be saved, and that Jesus is Lord, and that the MUSt and WILl call upon His name!

NOMNE surrender their will to get saved, its the Lord Himself doing his divine work to open sinners herats and mind to that mission!

 

[The Biblicist]

This is a ridiculous argument.

Again, it is obvious and apparent to anyone reading John 6:64-65 that Jesus is reminding them in verse 65 what he already stated in verse 44. The words "therefore, I said unto you" makes this clear. There is no way you can deny this without looking ridiculous.

Also, the word "therefore" demands that his repetition has an immediate application. You cannot deny that without looking ridiculous. If he is not repeating and applying it to those in verse 64 then who or what is the intended application for this repitition? Please, no personal opinions without a contextual based reason provided. I have provided a contextual based subject for this application in verse 64, so what is yours?

Your responses so far only have made you look ridiculous and incompetent. Provide something at least to make you appear you can properly interpret scriptures.

 

[Winman]

Its not HOW long, or how often sinners hear the Gospel, its when and if the Holy spirit opens their herats and minds to it, for those whom he comes to do that for, the Gospel accomplish its God ordained task to save thiose sinners, for the Spirit takes those woreds and grans them understanding of their need to be saved, and that Jesus is Lord, and that the MUSt and WILl call upon His name!

NOMNE surrender their will to get saved, its the Lord Himself doing his divine work to open sinners herats and mind to that mission!

I didn't say one word about how often and long a person must hear the gospel to believe. I believed the gospel the first time I heard it and received Jesus right away, but many people resist the gospel for years. They will tell you they understood they needed to get saved, and they knew they would go to hell without Christ, but they might have had a sin they did not want to give up, so they did not receive Jesus at that time. This shows a person can be drawn but resist.

But you are wrong about sinners not surrendering, Paul was resisting the Holy Ghost, Jesus said so. But on the day Jesus appeared to him, he quit resisting and obeyed the gospel.

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

I personally believe Paul knew who was speaking to him, and that his question "Who art thou, Lord?" was insincere. He knew very well who was speaking to him.

Paul was being drawn, he was being enticed, but he was resisting. But after Jesus clearly identified himself, and told Paul he was resisting, Paul gave up and asked Jesus, "Lord, what wilt thou have me do?" This is when Paul was saved.

So don't tell me the scriptures do not show a person surrendering their will to the Lord.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, it is obvious and apparent to anyone reading John 6:64-65 that Jesus is reminding them in verse 65 what he already stated in verse 44. The words "therefore, I said unto you" makes this clear. There is no way you can deny this without looking ridiculous.

Also, the word "therefore" demands that his repetition has an immediate application. You cannot deny that without looking ridiculous. If he is not repeating and applying it to those in verse 64 then who or what is the intended application for this repitition? Please, no personal opinions without a contextual based reason provided. I have provided a contextual based subject for this application in verse 64, so what is yours?

Your responses so far only have made you look ridiculous and incompetent. Provide something at least to make you appear you can properly interpret scriptures.

And your answer is...........?????

 

[convicted1]

To me it is more like you are trying to explain away what the scriptures really say.

Nope. I try to explain nothing away, but to expound upon it. You have every right to accept or reject my posts and their ideas.

We are talking about drawing. You and Biblicist insist everyone that is drawn will come to Jesus, which means to believe and be saved. But then you show a parable by Jesus himself where not everyone who is drawn comes to Jesus and is saved. The "bad" fish are not believers, they are cast out. Yet they were drawn just like the good fish.

The gospel is to be preached to any and all by God called preachers. None of these preachers know who the sheep and goats are, yet we are commanded by Jesus Himself, to preach it to every creature. God uses it to call His sheep out from amongst the goats. The goats have no desire to "be ye reconciled to God", as they have their self-righteousness to make them feel good about themselves. You've seen many make a "confession of grace", yet their walk and talk proves otherwise. Some keep living the "church lifestyle" while living ungodly, and others walk out of the church and have their name erased off the church book. The gospel appealed to their flesh and they received it with joy, yet in time, they had nothing holding them steadfast, and they weren't what they professed they were(Matthew 13).

This parable refutes your view easily, and I think you are 100% aware of it, but you are trying to explain it away. That is why I said you know better.

Now all those fish came to shore, but not all of them were saved.

Isn't that the truth?

Again, the gospel entices the flesh as well. It takes God to do the internal work and quicken them, and this causes a saving faith to come to fruition. The external stimulus comes from the gospel, but if God doesn't do an internal stimulus, they'll want nothing to do with Him.

 

[convicted1]

The biggest misconception about the gospel, imo, is the target being aimed at. One side says the call goes world wide, to any and all, and leaves no one out. The other side says it's also world wide, but to bring the sheep out from the goats. I believe the latter to be the true positionsmilewinkgrin: :thumbsup, and here's why.

Even those of the opposing view admit that not everyone ever born will hear the name of Jesus Christ in their life from birth----->death. They will even admit that they can't believe in someone they know nothing about....and I agree with that(Romans 10). Now, if some die never knowing that Jesus Christ ever existed, and according to their view that they can't believe in Jesus since they've never heard of Him, then how can John 12:32 mean "every single person that has lived since His ascension"? It can't, and their own beliefs thwart them and their belief that God did draw everyone w/o exception.

The gospel is a call that brings the sheep out from the goats. Here is what Jesus stated in John 15:19: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." Then Peter confirms this later on in 2 Peter 2:9-10: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." God has a chosen generation from the first Adam until the last sheep is gathered into the sheepfold. Not one of them will suffer the eternal punishment in the lake of fire.


Now the gospel to the goats is needful, because it only confirms their non-existant(sp?) walk with God, which is something they've never had, never will have, and will never desire to have a walk with Him. It only confirms their distain for God and His work. Paul wrote this in 1 Cor. 1:18: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." They want nothing to do with it. They have no desire to "be ye reconciled to God". The gospel is sent to them, yet they shun it. It's solely their fault, and not God's, for rejecting it. It only seals their eternal state. Then in 1 Cor. 1:21, Paul stated this: "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." The gospel calls the sheep from amongst the goats. It confirms, it seals both their eternal states. One to everlasting joy, the other to everlasting torment and shame.

Bumping this so that it doesn't go w/o a response....

Channeling my inner "The Biblicist" and "BobRyan"....:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Yeshua1]

I didn't say one word about how often and long a person must hear the gospel to believe. I believed the gospel the first time I heard it and received Jesus right away, but many people resist the gospel for years. They will tell you they understood they needed to get saved, and they knew they would go to hell without Christ, but they might have had a sin they did not want to give up, so they did not receive Jesus at that time. This shows a person can be drawn but resist.

But you are wrong about sinners not surrendering, Paul was resisting the Holy Ghost, Jesus said so. But on the day Jesus appeared to him, he quit resisting and obeyed the gospel.

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

I personally believe Paul knew who was speaking to him, and that his question "Who art thou, Lord?" was insincere. He knew very well who was speaking to him.

Paul was being drawn, he was being enticed, but he was resisting. But after Jesus clearly identified himself, and told Paul he was resisting, Paul gave up and asked Jesus, "Lord, what wilt thou have me do?" This is when Paul was saved.

So don't tell me the scriptures do not show a person surrendering their will to the Lord.

paul was Onew whom the lord had already chosen to be his chief agent untot he gentiles, and he surrendered his will to Jesus/God, AFTER trhe Holy spirit openned his mind and spiritual eyes to who jesus was, as he called Him Lod, NONE do that until/unless enabled to by the Holy Spirit!

Do sinners surrender wills to God, yes, but ONLY after God works thru and on them to have them such, as sinners in natural state refuse to bow to God!

 

[Winman]

And your answer is...........?????

Yes, in John 6:65 Jesus is referring back to John 6:44 when he said that no man could come to him unless he were drawn by the Father. But you can't exclude verse 45 which explains HOW they were drawn. The were drawn by the word of God, this is how they were "taught" and "heard" and "learned" from the Father.

And in John 6:63 Jesus again speaks of "the words I speak unto you", this is the "it" that was given in verse 65.

And for about the third time, John 17 supports all of this. Here Jesus speaks of those persons given to him, and says "they have kept thy word". They weren't zapped with faith or knowledge, they heard the word of God and believed it.

Then Jesus plainly tells us what was given them, "the words that thou gavest me".

Jesus didn't zap them with faith, he gave them the word of God. This is what also drew men in Jhn 6:44-45, and Jhn 6:63.

Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Again, Jesus didn't zap these disciples with knowledge or faith, he gave them the words his Father gave him, and THEY received them and believed them.

This is why Jesus said no man can come to him unless "it" (the word of God) is given them.

Nobody can come to Jesus without the word of God. The gospel draws all men. But only those who sincerely hear and learn, those who receive and believe God's word will come to Jesus.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus gave the words his Father gave him to his disciples, but some did not believe, they did not receive God's word. Therefore, no man can come to Jesus unless IT (the word of God) was given unto them of his Father.

You are trying to convince us that God gave faith to the disciples when that is not said, and you are completely ignoring that Jesus gave his Father's words to his disciples which is directly told us in scripture.

What kind of scholar inserts his own presuppositions into scripture and at the same time ignores what the scriptures directly tells him?

Not very wise.