Featured "given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

How do you know you've passed from death to life? Because ye love the Brethern. I know He saved me because I feel His touch and know His voice.

Now, has every single person ever born post-ascension heard and known about Jesus Christ?

 

Your assurance is based on feelings? Good luck with that.

No, but how does that prove your view? Just because not every person has heard about Jesus, can you speak for him and say he did not desire these people hear of him and be saved? If so, you are a BRAVE man.

 

No, Iam not basing my salvation on feelings, but I know I am His because I know He made a change in me that I was unable to make by myself.

Look, all I can go by is what His word says. Apostle Paul stated in Romans 10, "how can they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" No one can/will believe in Christ if they didn't know He even exists. Jesus doesn't save those who have never knew/knows He exists. Jesus saves those who believe, and not unbelievers. Ye shall die in your sins except ye believe I am He. In Hebrews 6, it states that w/o faith it's impossible to please Him. For he who comes to Him, must BELIEVE THAT HE IS, and that He is a REWARDER OF THEM WHICH DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM. So, if they don't know Jesus exists, they have zero faith in Him, zero ability to come to Him, and zero chance He died for them...seeing He is a Surety and not potential Saviour.

 

First, you ASSUME Calvinism. God himself told the Jews to make them a new heart.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jesus said to make the tree good.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Do these scriptures teach inability? Do they imply inability Willis? This is what I was talking about, hundreds of scriptures do not agree with Calvinism Willis, but Calvinists simply ignore scripture like this. Not wise.

If you went by what God's word says you would believe he wants to save every man, because he commands us to tell every creature the gospel.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Willis, I do not know why God depends on men to carry his message to the world, but he does. We are commanded to preach the gospel to "every creature" which definitely implies God desires all men to be saved. The fact that many men will not trust Christ does not change God's desire.

I think it is a HUGE mistake to teach that God does not desire all men to be saved.

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

 

Brother winman, I'm not assuming anything. The Doctrines of Grace are all over the bible. They saturate every page.

If we could make ourselves a new heart and spirit, then Christ wasted His time being mocked, slapped, spit upon, beaten, and finally nailed to the cross.

Again, if sinful man is able to make themselves good, Christ wasted Him time.

Look, the bible is written to the church, to the bride, the Lamb's wife, and not everyone w/o exception. Until moved upon, they are just words on paper. When quickened by God, they take life, they leap off the pages, as Jesus stated, My words are Spirit and life. It's after God has done His work on a fallen human, they can do that which the bible commands them to do, and not before.

The gospel is sent to call the sheep out from the goats. The sheep will love it and the goats will reject it all the way to their grave.

If God truly desires to save all men, then He would. When satan and his minions fell, He chose not to restore them. He could have done the same with Adam and Eve, but He chose what He did to His glory.

God uses men as a means to accomplish His plan. That is why He chose men to proclaim His works.

If God truly desired to save everyone, then everyone would be saved. He doesn't delight in the death if the wicked, yet He sends them to eternal torment because they deserved to go there.

 

Wow Willis, you just denied scripture. God himself told the Jews to make themselves a new heart and spirit. Look in your Bible and see for yourself.

And Jesus said make the tree good, look that up as well.

Now, I'm not saying we can do anything without God's grace, but the fact is, we are involved too. You just denied that.

Willis, I think you are waaaaay out there now. We will just have to disagree.

I need to get up very early, so I am cutting out for now. There is not much point for us discussing this anymore.

 

If we could do anything good in ourselves then Christ wasted Him time Brother. We can't do anything w/o the Spirit, and when the Spirit moves within us, it is showing us that God has already began a work within us that will bring us all the way to the throne.

 

Look Brother, I've never denied scriptures, just YOUR interpretation of them, just like you've never denied them, but MY interpretation.

 

Not buying that explanation Willis, you can read as well as I can, God clearly told the Jews to "make you" a new heart and a new spirit. In the next verse God said "turn yourselves". Not much room for misinterpretation there.

And Jesus said to make the tree good and it's fruit good. All of these verses show man is involved. There are literally hundreds of scriptures like this you must deny in your view.

No, it's not a matter of interpretation of scripture, it is a DENIAL of scripture.

 

Hi Willis: I'll humor you :wavey:

This is true.

This is also true.
Those are not contradictory statements.

If to "draw" means to irresistably compel then it couldn't.
But your loyal opposition doesn't believe it does. Your loyal opposition believes that the serpent Jesus refers to was there to draw all of Israel....and yet, many still died.
Num 21:8
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Sure it can, you are assuming that Biblicist's 95,000,000,000 theses about "draw" are correct. We don't. We don't believe that the Scriptures teach that all who are "drawn" Ultimately come, only that it is a necessary condition.

This is not unique to Calvinism.

It is needful WHY exactly??
Because everything you will list will be an explanation about why it can do absolutely nothing for them, and accomplishes absolutely nothing....see here:

Listen to the Calvinist double-speak here Willis. You are considering the "gospel" as synonymous with the "call" and your entire point is that God doesn't "draw" or "call" the goats at all. So then, why do you say this?

Given the point of your post, no it really isn't. Remember your beginning paragraph?
Originally Posted by convicted1
The biggest misconception about the gospel, imo, is the target being aimed at
Which is it?

Rejecting WHAT WILLIS.....WHAT???

YOU NEVER OFFERED THEM ANYTHING!!! AND neither has CHRIST!!!

The "gospel" in your schema is this, Willis:
It is nothing more than saying:
"Jesus loved and died for some people, but you are a goat, so the good news or "gospel" is Christ loved and died for...a bunch of people not to include you."
That's the "gospel" in your view Willis.....So what's the point of sharing it with them?

It was already sealed....It does nothing whatsoever to seal their fate.
The gospel going to the lost accomplishes absolutely nothing whatsoever in your schema....nothing.

This is irrelevant.

The gospel isn't the call.....it's the good news. You are conflating the terms.
Calvinism does that to people, it makes them see words as being synonymous which in no normative Universe would ever be mistaken as being synonyms. That's been Biblicist's intention for about 70 million pages and 6 months now, convincing people that the Thesaurus should read something like this:

Draw (verb)

synonyms:
"complel", "give", "raise-up", "save", "love", "teach", "elect", "know" "pre-destinate"

antonyms:
"condemn", "damn", "pass-over", "label as goat", "hate", "not-know"

In fact, that's even the very title and purpose of this thread:
"Translate 'given' as 'draw' instead of 'given', because I need it to say that." (paraphrased)

Sometimes, it's effective, and people honestly begin to confuse and conflate otherwise simple, obvious monosyllabic words, like "all" and (in your particular case here):
"call" or "draw" with "gospel".

The gospel going out to the damned accomplishes absolutely nothing of the sort. Their fate is (and always was) sealed.

By your own logic, then...
Those lost who never actually hear don't actually have their fate "sealed" if the "gospel" is what "seals their fate" right???

 

Brother, I've denied nothing, period. God Himself stated He would take out the stony heart and give a fleshly heart, a heart a love. I never once stated man's not involved, but man can't do anything prior to God doing His part first. Salvation is "not of yourselves", it is of God. God is the one who starts it, and finishes it.

Ezekiel 11:19 AndI will give them one heart, andI will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:



Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

Eze 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Exd 8:32
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Exd 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exd 7:23
And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also.
Exd 25:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.
Jer 31:21
Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.
Eze 28:6
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Joe 2:13
And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

 

All these passages/verses show God is the One in charge and not man. God is the One who calls....not saying any of you disagree with this, but, His call doesn't go to everyone w/o exception, and Brother Winman conceded this point. I will finish this post with one more verse:

 

Convicted1 it seems you've merely acquired one these on top your computer when you answer the questions given you:

 

Willis, these scriptures do not prove that man does not cooperate with God in salvation. Jesus knocks on the door, but the man must open and invite him in (Rev 3:20).

You can't simply ignore scripture that is inconvenient for you.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

How do you answer Ezekiel 18:31 Willis? Please explain what you think God is saying in this verse.

 

I like mine better 'cause they're "purtier"... :laugh: :love2::tongue3:

 

Brother, Ezekiel is addressing the Israelites, those who were already in a covenant with God. This, imo , is the OT equivalent to us repenting when we sin and go astray. They, under the Law, had not the permanent indwelling of the Spirit, so they did what the prophets, high priests, judges, et al told them.

We are required to repent when we sin, just as they were required to do with those passages you posted. Of course, this is just my opinion, but what I also believe.

 

Brother, I will address your post....lengthy...when I am not on my nook. I don't know how to "cut-n-paste" on it...ugh!!!

 

We who have been saved by the Lord jesus, passed over from death to life in Him, and love God, love the Bible, love the bethren desire to serve him, to have prayer with him etc

Those are fruits and proofs to evidence that has been elected by God!

Read peter on how we can know by our life that our election from ofGod was confirmed as being true and sure!