This is the third time I have bumped this to get a response to it. I think it is quite sound, and I would like for someone to honor me with their rebuttal. Thanks in advance. :thumbs:
Hi Willis: I'll humor you :wavey:
Originally Posted by convicted1
The biggest misconception about the gospel, imo, is the target being aimed at. One side says the call goes world wide, to any and all, and leaves no one out.
This is true.
The other side says it's also world wide, but to bring the sheep out from the goats. I believe the latter to be the true position( ), and here's why.
This is
also true.
Those are not contradictory statements.
Even those of the opposing view admit that not everyone ever born will hear the name of Jesus Christ in their life from birth----->death. They will even admit that they can't believe in someone they know nothing about....and I agree with that(Romans 10). Now, if some die never knowing that Jesus Christ ever existed, and according to their view that they can't believe in Jesus since they've never heard of Him, then how can John 12:32 mean "every single person that has lived since His ascension"?
If to "draw" means to irresistably compel then it couldn't.
But your loyal opposition doesn't believe it does. Your loyal opposition believes that the serpent Jesus refers to was there to draw all of Israel....and yet, many still died.
Num 21:8
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
It can't, and their own beliefs thwart them and their belief that God did draw everyone w/o exception.
Sure it can, you are assuming that Biblicist's 95,000,000,000 theses about "draw" are correct. We don't. We
don't believe that the Scriptures teach that all who are "drawn" Ultimately come, only that it is a necessary condition.
The gospel is a call that brings the sheep out from the goats. Here is what Jesus stated in John 15:19: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." Then Peter confirms this later on in 2 Peter 2:9-10: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." God has a chosen generation from the first Adam until the last sheep is gathered into the sheepfold. Not one of them will suffer the eternal punishment in the lake of fire.
This is not unique to Calvinism.
Now the gospel to the goats is needful,
It is needful WHY exactly??
Because everything you will list will be an explanation about why it can do absolutely nothing for them, and accomplishes absolutely nothing....see here:
because it only confirms their non-existant(sp?) walk with God, which is something they've never had, never will have, and will never desire to have a walk with Him.
It only confirms their distain for God and His work. Paul wrote this in 1 Cor. 1:18: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." They want nothing to do with it. They have no desire to "be ye reconciled to God". The gospel is sent to them, yet they shun it.
Listen to the Calvinist double-speak here Willis. You are considering the "gospel" as synonymous with the "call" and your entire point is that God doesn't "draw" or "call" the goats at all. So then, why do you say this?
The gospel is sent to them,
Given the point of your post, no it really isn't. Remember your beginning paragraph?
Originally Posted by convicted1
The biggest misconception about the gospel, imo, is the target being aimed at
Which is it?
It's solely their fault, and not God's, for rejecting it.
Rejecting
WHAT WILLIS.....WHAT???
YOU NEVER
OFFERED THEM ANYTHING!!! AND neither has CHRIST!!!
The "gospel" in your schema is this, Willis:
It is nothing more than saying:
"Jesus loved and died for some people, but you are a goat, so the good news or "gospel" is Christ loved and died for...a bunch of people not to include you."
That's the "gospel" in your view Willis.....So what's the point of sharing it with them?
It only seals their eternal state.
It was already sealed....It does nothing whatsoever to seal their fate.
The gospel going to the lost accomplishes absolutely nothing whatsoever in your schema....nothing.
Then in 1 Cor. 1:21, Paul stated this: "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
This is irrelevant.
The gospel calls the sheep from amongst the goats.
The gospel isn't the call.....it's the good news. You are conflating the terms.
Calvinism does that to people, it makes them see words as being synonymous which in no normative Universe would ever be mistaken as being synonyms. That's been Biblicist's intention for about 70 million pages and 6 months now, convincing people that the Thesaurus should read something like this:
Draw (verb)
synonyms:
"complel", "give", "raise-up", "save", "love", "teach", "elect", "know" "pre-destinate"
antonyms:
"condemn", "damn", "pass-over", "label as goat", "hate", "not-know"
In fact, that's even the very title and purpose of this thread:
"Translate 'given' as 'draw' instead of 'given', because I need it to say that." (paraphrased)
Sometimes, it's effective, and people honestly begin to confuse and conflate otherwise simple, obvious monosyllabic words, like "all" and (in your particular case here):
"call" or "draw" with "gospel".
It confirms, it seals both their eternal states.
The gospel going out to the damned accomplishes absolutely nothing of the sort. Their fate is (and always was) sealed.
By your own logic, then...
Those lost who never actually hear don't actually have their fate "sealed" if the "gospel" is what "seals their fate" right???
