Can a Reformed deny Lordship salvation and endorse the sinners prayer?

[evangelist6589]

Erwin Lutzer comes to mind here whom may be Reformed, yet he denies Lordship Salvation and also believes in the sinners prayer. I have read many of his books and in some of them he uses the sinners prayer and in one book on Rewards he clearly teaches against Lordship salvation. Is it possible for a Reformed to deny these doctrines? If so I would place him in the same category as David Jeremiah whom is a moderate Calvinist. Although Lutzer has a better understanding on the doctrines of Grace and this shows in some of his books. But in other books he peaches the "God has a wonderful plan for your life" message. So I am not sure about him.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Erwin Lutzer comes to mind here whom may be Reformed, yet he denies Lordship Salvation and also believes in the sinners prayer. I have read many of his books and in some of them he uses the sinners prayer and in one book on Rewards he clearly teaches against Lordship salvation. Is it possible for a Reformed to deny these doctrines? If so I would place him in the same category as David Jeremiah whom is a moderate Calvinist. Although Lutzer has a better understanding on the doctrines of Grace and this shows in some of his books. But in other books he peaches the "God has a wonderful plan for your life" message. So I am not sure about him.

I'm a DoG theology believer and I deny both of those silly things.

 

[evangelist6589]

I'm a DoG theology believer and I deny both of those silly things.

You are Arminian whom thinks he is Reformed.

 

[convicted1]

You are Arminian whom thinks he is Reformed.

Oh no you didn't...

 

[Revmitchell]

You are Arminian whom thinks he is Reformed.

And just what is it that would make him an Arminian?

 

[convicted1]

And just what is it that would make him an Arminian?

I was wondering the same thing, Brother. Btw, have you gotten over your illness?

 

[Revmitchell]

I was wondering the same thing, Brother. Btw, have you gotten over your illness?

Some cals do not know what an arminain is. They seem to think if you are not a cal that automatically make one an arminian.


I am much much better, still coughing a bit but not near as much.

 

[padredurand]

You are Arminian whom thinks he is Reformed.

I think one is about to hit the other. Just saying.

 

[convicted1]

I think one is about to hit the other. Just saying.

OMG, now that's funny. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

I think one is about to hit the other. Just saying.

So, you're saying you're a Winnie the Pooh fan? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[JonC]

But in other books he peaches the "God has a wonderful plan for your life" message. So I am not sure about him.

This is the second time that you objected to such a message. What exactly is the “God has a wonderful plan for your life” message that Lutzer preaches? I had always thought that God did have a wonderful plan for our lives, and certainly that notion can be found throughout Scripture. But I think that you are speaking of something else. If you don’t mind, will you please give me an example of this in Lutzer’s work so that I can better understand your objection?

Erwin Lutzer comes to mind here whom may be Reformed, yet he denies Lordship Salvation and also believes in the sinners prayer. I have read many of his books and in some of them he uses the sinners prayer and in one book on Rewards he clearly teaches against Lordship salvation. Is it possible for a Reformed to deny these doctrines? If so I would place him in the same category as David Jeremiah whom is a moderate Calvinist. Although Lutzer has a better understanding on the doctrines of Grace and this shows in some of his books. But in other books he peaches the "God has a wonderful plan for your life" message. So I am not sure about him.

For the record, yes they can reject Lordship salvation and remain Reformed. Enns, for example, notes that the issue is “whether or not one can become a Christian simply by believing the gospel, or whether or not one must surrender to Christ as the Lord of one’s life. Part of the answer lies in a misunderstanding of Romans 10:9. Confession of Christ as Lord identifies Christ as deity; the issue is not concerning His lordship. In addition, if surrendering one’s life to Christ as Lord is necessary for salvation, then there could be no carnal Christians, yet Paul makes it clear that the Corinthians whom he speaks of being ‘in Christ’ wee indeed carnal (1 Cor. 3:1). Lordship is based on application of the knowledge of Scripture, and the knowledge of Scripture comes with spiritual maturity, which in turn follows salvation. Lordship is important, but it cannot be a condition for salvation; that is adding to the gospel.” (Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology, 343).

 

[Revmitchell]

Enns does not understand Lordship any more than many folks on this board.

 

[JonC]

Enns does not understand Lordship any more than many folks on this board.

But that wasn't the question in the OP. It would be difficult to deny that Enns is of Reformed persuasion and he denies Lordship salvation.

You do, of course, have a good point. There are too many definitions of Lordship. Using Enns definition, I agree with him, but using my own I do not. I don’t view the term to mean achieving that maturity of faith or an application of the knowledge of Scripture - these are important but they are outgrowths of Lordship (perhaps discipleship). I understand Lordship to be included in belief.

Enns does provide a definition before commenting , but as I don’ t know your definition I can’t tell if it is a matter of definition or understanding. How do you define Lordship salvation?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are Arminian whom thinks he is Reformed.

Oh really.....I'm not an arminian.....nor am I reformed. I'm an old school Baptist.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think one is about to hit the other. Just saying.

Now that's funny. Removes the slug & puts in bird shot.:thumbs:

 

[evangelist6589]

This is the second time that you objected to such a message. What exactly is the “God has a wonderful plan for your life” message that Lutzer preaches? I had always thought that God did have a wonderful plan for our lives, and certainly that notion can be found throughout Scripture. But I think that you are speaking of something else. If you don’t mind, will you please give me an example of this in Lutzer’s work so that I can better understand your objection?

This book Failure: The Backdoor to Success seems to be what I had in mind. While there are concepts to learn from this book, the focus seems to be on me and my success, and written to heal my emotions and better my life. Perhaps I am incorrect in my assertion, and I would believe it would be wrong to say his whole ministry is based on this topic which it is not. Granted I have learned so much from him, and love many of his books. I just question sometimes if he is fully Reformed.

For the record, yes they can reject Lordship salvation and remain Reformed. Enns, for example, notes that the issue is “whether or not one can become a Christian simply by believing the gospel, or whether or not one must surrender to Christ as the Lord of one’s life. Part of the answer lies in a misunderstanding of Romans 10:9. Confession of Christ as Lord identifies Christ as deity; the issue is not concerning His lordship. In addition, if surrendering one’s life to Christ as Lord is necessary for salvation, then there could be no carnal Christians, yet Paul makes it clear that the Corinthians whom he speaks of being ‘in Christ’ wee indeed carnal (1 Cor. 3:1). Lordship is based on application of the knowledge of Scripture, and the knowledge of Scripture comes with spiritual maturity, which in turn follows salvation. Lordship is important, but it cannot be a condition for salvation; that is adding to the gospel.” (Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology, 343).

[/QUOTE]

Yes but in his book Your Eternal Reward he makes it quite clear he does not agree with Lordship Salvation and says himself on a page that homosexuals whom are Christians can enter heaven, just not inherit it.

 

[evangelist6589]

This is the second time that you objected to such a message. What exactly is the “God has a wonderful plan for your life” message that Lutzer preaches? I had always thought that God did have a wonderful plan for our lives, and certainly that notion can be found throughout Scripture. But I think that you are speaking of something else. If you don’t mind, will you please give me an example of this in Lutzer’s work so that I can better understand your objection?

Yes I am for many Christians preach the message of health, wealth, success, and prosperity and totally forget that Stephen was stoned for his faith. Paul suffered hardship, trial, loneliness, and persecution & Jesus was crucified and REJECTED by many. Yes the many whom cried out Hosanna while he was riding the donkey into Jerusalem would later cry out CRUCIFY HIM! The modern gospel preaches that when one REPENTS and becomes a believer their life will get better and there will be no suffering. This is not the Biblical gospel and not true. While Lutzer does not preach this, it would appear he may at times preach on success and how to better my life.

 

[evangelist6589]

Oh really.....I'm not an arminian.....nor am I reformed. I'm an old school Baptist.

Dispensationalist. So am I, but Reformed in Soteriology.

 

[JonC]

Yes I am for many Christians preach the message of health, wealth, success, and prosperity and totally forget that Stephen was stoned for his faith. Paul suffered hardship, trial, loneliness, and persecution & Jesus was crucified and REJECTED by many. Yes the many whom cried out Hosanna while he was riding the donkey into Jerusalem would later cry out CRUCIFY HIM! The modern gospel preaches that when one REPENTS and becomes a believer their life will get better and there will be no suffering. This is not the Biblical gospel and not true. While Lutzer does not preach this, it would appear he may at times preach on success and how to better my life.

Thanks for answering me here. While I am familiar with Lutzer I have not read much of his works and haven’t gotten that impression of him. It is amazing that some preachers seem to indicate that God’s wonderful plan culminates in material gain in this life time - particularly when so much of the comfort and encouragement in the New Testament was written to an audience that was to be persecuted and many die for the faith. It would have been difficult for them to “count it joy” if they expecting earthly success and wealth. I don't know Lutzer's stance on Calvinism (that's why I used Enns as an example).

 

[padredurand]

Thanks for answering me here. While I am familiar with Lutzer I have not read much of his works and haven’t gotten that impression of him. It is amazing that some preachers seem to indicate that God’s wonderful plan culminates in material gain in this life time - particularly when so much of the comfort and encouragement in the New Testament was written to an audience that was to be persecuted and many die for the faith. It would have been difficult for them to “count it joy” if they expecting earthly success and wealth. I don't know Lutzer's stance on Calvinism (that's why I used Enns as an example).

Isn't it a wonderful plan for your life when God redeems His elect?