1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Adoption

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Van, Mar 1, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 6 of 6
  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    If you are not a son now, you are not saved. It is that simple.
    As to your assertion, it is false.

    Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
    7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

    These verses speak in the context of adoption. Because we are NOW adopted sons, and not servants of bondage we are also heirs. We have an inheritance. And as an extra added bonus, what other privilege do we have?

    Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
    --It is the adopted sons of God that can truly call the Father "Abba." This is something you fail to understand. We don't have to wait for the resurrection to have that intimate relationship with him. We can have it now, through our adopted status as "mature" sons.

    Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
    --If you are not a son NOW, at the time of the resurrection you will not receive a glorified body; you will be cast out, rejected.

    Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
    --Four times in three verses is the word "son" used. Each time the word "uios" is used. The word" tekna" is the more general word used for child, children, etc. This word, uios, son, is the same word used in adoption or "son-placement."

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    --You are not led by the Spirit of God?? Do you have to wait for the resurrection? The word "uios" is used here.

    Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    Have I made my case yet?
     
    #101 DHK, Mar 17, 2014
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Folks, non-stop fiction does not alter biblical truth.

    1) Are we sons of God because we are born anew? Yes. So the claim we must be adopted to become sons is silly nonsense. We must be born anew.

    2) Does Galatians 4:6-7 speak in the context of adoption? Nope. They speak in the context of being sons. Notice Galatians 4:5 speaks that as sons we might receive adoption. (Again the word here is not adoption, in the Greek, it is son-placing.) As sons, we will receive the promised resurrection is the idea.

    3) No matter how many times DHK asserts we do not become sons of God when we are born anew, it remains fiction.

    4) No matter how many times the fiction is repeated, son-placing refers to placing a son, not "non-son placing to become a son."

    5) We do not become sons because we are led by the Holy Spirit, but the opposite, we are led by the Holy Spirit because we are sons.

    6) DHK has made no case. Here is his case.

    a) When we are born anew, our new birth in Christ does not make us sons of God.
    b) Only when God also adopts us, simultaneously with rebirth, are we made sons. ​

    Never mind so verse says we are adopted to become sons, but we become sons when we are born anew.

    Here is Galatians 3:26, For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

    And here is the DHK rewrite, for you are all sons of God through adoption. The fly in the buttermilk is that is found nowhere is scripture.

    But as many as received Him (put their wholehearted faith in Christ Jesus) to them He gave the right to become children of God. And how was this right to be an heir bestowed? To those who were born, repeat born not adopted, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man but of God.
     
    #102 Van, Mar 17, 2014
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137

    ​
    Van, you are willing to accept that much more happens at the time of salvation, than simply regeneration. At that time:
    One is regenerated and made a child of God,
    Adopted and made a "mature" son,
    Placed into the household of God,
    Given an inheritance,
    He becomes part of the bride of Christ,
    He is sanctified
    Justified,
    forgiven,
    eternally secured,
    made righteous in the sight of God,
    and much, much more.

    You focus on just one thing--the new birth, being a child of God. Much more happens than the new birth. One of those things is being adopted and placed in the household of God as a mature son--placed as a servant, now free from the law to which formerly he was in bondage.
     
    #103 DHK, Mar 17, 2014
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again DHK, you are knocking down your strawman, having nothing to do with the Biblical position.

    1) When God puts us in Christ spiritually, several things happen. Not just regeneration.
    2) We are made alive together with Christ. Thus to not be in Christ is to be spiritually dead, separated from God, and to be in Christ is to be alive, together with Christ.
    3) We are not "son-placed" when we are born anew, but we are sons of God because we have been born into God's family.
    4) As sons of God we are heirs to our inheritance.
    5) Yes, when we are placed in Christ, we are born anew and we become part of the body of Christ, and the bride of Christ, the Church.
    6) We are positionally sanctified, i.e. transferred in the kingdom of His Son, but then until we physically die, we undergo progressive sanctification where we strive to follow Christ and be like him and serve him. When Christ comes again, we undergo Ultimate Sanctification, where we are raised in glorified bodies, our promised resurrection to life.
    7) When we are placed spiritually in Christ, we are baptized into His death, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, where our body of flesh is removed, i.e. our sin burden, and we arise in Christ a new creation, created for good works.
    8) This removal of our sin burden, our body of flesh, justifies us, as all our sins, past, present and future are forgiven and so it is just as if we did not sin once born anew.
    9) Yes, as a born anew believer we are protected, kept, for our inheritance reserved in heaven for us. Eternally secure.
    10) Yes we are made blameless, holy and righteous.
     
    #104 Van, Mar 17, 2014
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Nope, not at all.
    I am glad you finally realize this and agree with me. Adoption is one of those things.
    When we are born of God we become the children of God "tekna."
    The word for adoption υιοθεσια is made up of two words:
    1. uios, meaning son.
    2. τιθημι or tithemi meaning "to place."
    The meaning of the word is "son placement," or to be placed as a son, according to it derivation. This happens at the time of our salvation.
    Read Fausett
    Both of these happen at salvation. Adoption (son-placing), the right to an inheritance happens at salvation. If you were not adopted you could have no inheritance. Moses gave up his inheritance.
    Sanctification doesn't save. Neither does adoption. Both happen at the time of salvation.
    You are only kept for an inheritance if you have been adopted. If adoption did not take place you have no right to an inheritance.
     
    #105 DHK, Mar 17, 2014
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi DHK, repeating the same mistaken view does not move the ball. Misrepresenting my views does not move the ball.

    1) You claim I said or thought only regeneration occurs when we are born anew. But you provided no quote. This misrepresentation you have repeated.

    2) As I said, we can find sources that we can quote which present our view, thus for you to cite so and so, and for me to cite such and such does not move the ball.

    3) When we are born anew as sons of God we have the right of an heir. Spiritually born children do not need to be adopted or son-placed at birth. And no scripture says they are!

    4) Positional sanctification saves. You can google it.

    5) Son-placing will occur at Christ's second coming. No born anew Christ has been "son-placed."

    6) 1 Peter 1:3-5 says only those God caused to be born anew, or reborn from above are protected and kept. Son-placing is nowhere to be found.
     
    #106 Van, Mar 18, 2014
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    This should:
    Answer Fausett. I am sure he has provided sufficient scripture for you to answer.
     
    #107 DHK, Mar 18, 2014
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi DHK, not one of the verses referenced in part III say we are adopted when we are born anew, not one. Care to copy and paste even one that does?

    For example, 1 Peter 1:3-4 does not mention "son-placing" but does say God caused them to be born anew.

    John 1:12-13 days we are given the right to become children of God by being born of God, not adopted by God.

    The Spirit of Promised Resurrection is given as a pledge to those who are already sons of God due to being born anew.

    Bottom line, a whole clothesline of malarkey has been filled with verses that do not mention adoption, but if you actually read them, adoption is hung out to dry. :) Son-placing is mentioned in 5 places in scripture and every time our promised resurrection when Christ returns is in view.

    Son-placing is used metaphorically by Paul to refer to when we are clothed in our glorified bodies at Christ's return, revealing us as sons of God.
     
    #108 Van, Mar 18, 2014
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    All of them do. When you read scripture with a bias (sometimes with total unbelief), then you refuse to be taught and can't see the truth no matter how well it is presented to you.
    You have demonstrated that you are unteachable.
    Regeneration doesn't automatically give you an inheritance.
    That inheritance comes via "the adoption."
    Therefore:
    1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
    --Ergo: no adoption; no inheritance. Moses was adopted. Moses had an inheritance. He rejected it. Note also that Fausett agrees with this.
    What do you think "given the right" means?
    The word "right" is usually translated "authority," the same word used in Mat.28:18.
    It is the adopted "mature" son that has the authority as a son.
    Look at Albert Barnes concerning John 1:12
    This is your wording; your philosophy. It is not found in the Word of God.
    The bottom line is: You can't refute what he said, therefore you call it malarkey and just ignore it.
    Of five places the word "adoption" is used, four of those times relate to adoption at the time of birth, and only one refers to a small aspect of the adoptive process at the time of the resurrection. But that is just one part, one small aspect of the adoption. You make it the whole. That is your error.
    No. The word "adoption" literally means "son-placing." Not only does it have that literal meaning in our culture, but also in the Greek and Roman Cultures. Not only does it have that literal meaning the very etymology of the word means "son-placing."

    υιοθεσια huiothesia

    υιος huios + τιθημι tithemi = υιοθεσια

    or

    uios + tithemi = uiothesia = son-placing (adoption)

    The very word adoption means son-placing and it takes place at infancy or very early childhood more than ninety percent of the time. Occasionally one might adopt an adult. But that is outside the boundary of what is normal.
    If you are not adopted, you will not receive a glorified body. It is that simple. Adoption must have already taken place. It takes place at the time of salvation.
     
    #109 DHK, Mar 18, 2014
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi DHK, you can copy and paste till the cows come home. 1 Peter 1:3-5 says God caused us to be born anew, but does not mention adoption. The passage also does not mention regeneration, being made alive. It mentions being born anew or reborn from above.

    In John 1:12 it reads He gave the power (or right) to become sons of God. Then, DHK, you and your source, add "by adoption." But that is not in the text, or any other text. You cannot add to scripture and expect anyone to accept it. You say I am unteachable, well it sure seems one of us is!! I do not accept teaching by adding to scripture.

    The word "adoption" is only found in translations, the Greek word actually refers to son-placing where a natural born child at maturity is declared an adult member of the family in a ceremony where the son puts on a new robe signifying his placement into an adult of the family status. Paul uses this to illustrate God putting us into glorified bodies, at Christ's second coming.
     
    #110 Van, Mar 18, 2014
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Your argument may be logical, but it is not rational.
    Here are some examples.
    1. There is no such word as "baptism" in the NT. The word "Baptidzo" is immersion, and should always be translated as such.
    2. There is no such word as "church" in the NT. The word "ekklesia" is "assembly, and should always be translated as such.

    There are other examples, but those two will suffice.
    You say:
    There is no such word as "adoption" in the NT, The word "uiothesia" is "son-placed" and should always be translated as such.

    The fact is that we do have an English word, as well as a Roman and Greek word for adoption. The word "uiothesia" is the Greek word for "adoption" and it was a common practice then, when a family would give their child to a wealthy family to be adopted by them for all parties involved:
    The wealthy family would gain an heir.
    The son would gain a good education and an inheritance.
    The poor family would have the satisfaction that their son would be well cared for--something that they were unable to do. (In essence that is what happened with Moses). This is a common practice is almost every culture. It is called adoption, meaning "son-placing" and takes place when the person is a small child or infant.
     
    #111 DHK, Mar 18, 2014
  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,556
    Likes Received:
    474
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Would it be fair and or correct to say in adoption one is placed in the bosom of the other?
     
    #112 percho, Mar 19, 2014
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks DHK, I agree with you to a degree. I think assembly is the best translation choice, rather than church, and I think immersion is the best translation choice. However, we have all these people who learned the meaning of church and baptism, and so to undercut them has costs many are unwilling to pay.

    There are many translation choices, lets call them the traditional translation choices, which according to modern scholarship are not the best. For example "one of a kind" is what is meant in John 3:16, but folks howl when you take only begotten Son out of the Bible.

    So market forces pull for keeping the traditional translation choices, even though they corrupt what we believe was God's actual message.
     
    #113 Van, Mar 19, 2014
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi Percho, it would be fair to say "adoption" is never mentioned in the NT. Imagine if the translators had chosen "commencement." A ceremony where a child is declared an adult, thus placing a child of the family into adulthood in the family. And this pictures us, at Christ's second coming, being clothed in our glorified bodies.

    Poor translations and vague translations result in providing support for corrupted doctrine. We should oppose that with every fiber of our unglorified bodies.
     
    #114 Van, Mar 19, 2014
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Neither is the word trinity, but we can see that doctrine written all over in both OT/NT!ond

    Again, truth is that we are either children of satan, or children of God, and those of us who are saved and been redeemed are RIGHT now known and called as sons/daughters of God, as God adopted us un the beloved!

    IF we were not adopted, have not been saved, and that adoption has to wait until Second Coming, then Paul and John and all the Apostles either were wrong, or else lied to us!
     
    #115 Yeshua1, Mar 22, 2014
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    But the word isn't commencement. It is "son-placing" or "son-placement," or very accurately defined as "adoption," which the placing of a son from one family into another family is. That is what our English word defines it as. It is a good English word that translates "uio-thetimi" correctly. You are denying this but it is not true. It is a proper and good translation.
    We cannot simply "transliterate" words.
    A transliteration is how we come up with deacon from "diakonos."
    The translation of the word is "servant" which diakonos means.
    However in Romans 1:1 Paul uses the word servant and the word is doulos.
    There the word doulos means slave, even bond-slave. There is more than one word translated servants, so perhaps the translators chose deacon in 1Tim.3 and translated servant instead of slave in Rom.1:1. It is our duty to find what the words really mean.
    The accurate definition in Rom. 8:15 is "adoption." That is the best translation there is. Now what does "adoption" mean. What does it involve, both in English and in the Greek and Roman cultures of the day? That is the task to find out. Your conclusions in this matter are wrong.
     
    #116 DHK, Mar 22, 2014
Page 6 of 6
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...