Featured Questions about the Calvinist viewpoint.

What do these Calvinist "cliches" have to do with whether Jesus only died for some men or all sinners? Nothing.

Oh well, I just consider the source.

 

Back to the question, what about those who have never heard the gospel?

The natural question is, how can one be condemned for rejecting Christ, when he's never heard of Him, or never heard the gospel? What will be the basis of his condemnation.

Paul provides what I think is the answer in Romans 2:

n other words, we all have a moral code of sorts, a sense of what is right and wrong. Our problem is that we can't even live up to our own moral code, and so will have no excuse when we are condemned for violating it. Yep, I'm guilty.

 

Correct, no man has an excuse because we all innately understand right from wrong.

But there is scripture that suggests God is more lenient with those who do not know the gospel.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Jesus said the man servant who did not know his lord's will, yet did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW stripes.

I am not exactly sure what this means, but it implies men who never hear the gospel are treated with lenience. I wouldn't want to speculate beyond that.

 

All have sinned, ALL need to receive jesus thru faith to get saved/right with God..

God knows those whom Jesus death atoned for, and he will make sure that his elect get the message, and the Spirit to be able to believe!

 

And who said otherwise?

Not a word of scripture to support your view. Who would have guessed? :laugh:

You are confusing whom Jesus died for with the elect. Jesus died for all men.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Jesus died for all men, but we only have access into this grace when we believe and are placed "in him"

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

Jesus death was a penal substitution, in that he actually died in the place of those sinners whom His death atoned for, so IF he indeed died in place of all sinners, either ALL will get saved somehow in the end, or else sinners go to hell with sins paid for in full!

Jesus died to secure out a faithful remnant unto the father, as there is no s

 

Do you have a word of scripture to prove your view? NOPE.

 

They will still go to Perdition. Yet their punishment will not be as severe as others there. It says in verse 48 of Luke 12 "But the one who does not know and does things deserving of punishment will be beaten with few blows."

That one is surely in the Lake of Fire. No punishment whatsoever will be meted out in Heaven --no matter how slight.

 

Good news in this is that God knows His own, ALL those meant to get saved by death of jesus will get saved !

 

Poppycock! 'THE LAW' is what is in mind, you are forcing the text. There's absolutely no 'moral code' even remotely referred to in the text:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
17 But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God,
18 and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth;
21 thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples?
23 thou who gloriest in the law, through thy transgression of the law dishonorest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?

....but we've been here at this same exact spot before:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1860822#post1860822

 

God knowing who the elect are doesn't help you. That is not good news for you.

If you believe in Limited Atonement, you cannot possibly know you are one of the elect. Just because you believe you are elect doesn't make it so.

You can believe a pistol is unloaded, put it to your head and pull the trigger, if it is loaded it will blow your brains out no matter what you believe.

If Limited Atonement is true, the greater possibility is that Jesus DID NOT die for you and you ARE NOT one of the elect.

Sad, but true.

And you call that "good news"? :laugh:

 

I based my comment on verse 16:

What is the law written on their hearts? Is it not a sense of what is right and wrong? A moral code of some kind. Paul says the conscience bears witness. That is, it warns one of the existence of a (or the) law, even if nobody ever told him what the law was.

That, it seems to me is the basis for judgment. They innately were aware of the law and violated it anyway.

 

It's a supernatural act of God that we call REGENERATION, that is synonymous with the 'circumcision of the heart' in v 29, that also leads into the question posed in Ro 3:1.

If non-Jews who had not the law nor were hearers of the law could have the law written in their hearts, and if the real Jews were those that were circumcised in heart, what advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? Ro 3:1

It's the source by which one does 'by nature' the things of the law; it's synonymous with 'God working within His own both to will and to work Phil 2:13; it's the agape shed abroad in their hearts whereby they fulfill the law as laid out a few chapters later in Ro 13:8-10, 'for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law, love therefore is the fulfilment of the law.'

No. The text concerns THE LAW, not a moral code.

Yea:

15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);

....compare with 9:1:

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit,

 

I know whom I have believed in, and that he is fully able to keep me against that day!

Being saved, knowing God, IS the sign one is the elect, as we know "after the fact!"

 

Good works and deeds have NOTHING to do with getting saved, but are vital afterwards, to show that one was really saved!

 

If you believe in Limited Atonement, then you cannot possibly know Jesus died for you.

What have you believed? That Jesus MIGHT have died for you? :laugh:

Your faith does not determine reality. The scriptures teach this.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

As usual, you believe the exact opposite of what scripture teaches. What you believe does not determine reality. Paul shows this in 1 Corinthians 15, he says if Christ is not raised from the dead, then your faith is in vain, and you are still in your sins.

You could believe Jesus is raised from the dead, but if in reality he is not, your faith is vain and you will die a sinner.

Likewise, if Jesus did not in reality die specifically for you, your faith is vain and you will die and go to hell whether you believe or not.

You seem to think that if you believe something, that magically makes it so. You could not be more wrong if you tried. And that is what the Bible itself teaches.

As I said before, you could believe a pistol is empty, and put it to your head and pull the trigger. If it is loaded, you will blow your brains out no matter what you believe.

 

Depravity and regeneration 2

SW,

While others are arguing over other things, let's keep things focused on your requested topic: depravity.

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

How free is man's will? Well, the lost man is a slave to his lusts according to Titus 3:3. He has no real freedom. He's a bit like an alcoholic who claims he can quit drinking anytime he wants to - he just doesn't want to. The abominable, filthy lost man, who drinks up iniquity like water, (Job 15:16) is addicted to his iniquity. He's a slave to his lusts. The depraved man is held fast by chains he cannot see - the chains of his own desires. He needs a new heart, and new desires. In a word, regeneration. Paul tells us that God saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Romans 6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Man is free alright. He's free from righteousness. He's free to sin. As Titus 3:3 puts it, he's free to live in malice and envy. He free to be hateful. He's free to hate God, but where's the freedom to love Him enough to desire Jesus more than his sins? Without the renewing of the Holy Ghost, he remains lost, and a "servant of sin". I wish more supposed Christians understood this. True freedom is freedom from sin. True freedom makes believers "servants to God", and produces "fruit unto holiness". Without that true freedom we cannot have the "end" of "everlasting life."

Read carefully John 8, particularly verses 30-47. You will find Jesus talking about "disciples indeed" who are "free indeed". It's possible to be like the drunk, who drinks up iniquity like water, and thinks he's free to quit anytime he wants. He may think of himself as free to choose righteousness, but he's not "free indeed". The Bible tells us that many "believed" on Jesus. Jesus didn't treat them as believers, though, because He knew their hearts. Not all, according to him, were "free indeed." They chose to believe, but they were still the servants of sin - they hadn't been regenerated.

We find, in John 8:30-47, Jesus clearly identifying the characteristics of two groups: the children of Abraham, and the children of the devil - the regenerated, and the unregenerated. There are those whom the Son has made free indeed, and those in bondage. There are those that love God and Jesus, and those that hate His Son. Both groups do the deeds of their father. There are those that are "of God" and hear God's words, and there are those that "are not of God" and do not believe. There are those that continue in His Word, and those of whom it is said, "My word hath no place in you." Jesus told them that the unregenerated "cannot understand" and "cannot hear my word." Cannot. As in unable to. Probably the most difficult statement to accept is where Jesus says, If I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? ... Because ye are not of God." - where Jesus places being "of God" as a prerequisite to believing Him and His Word.

Just how depraved is man? Well, he's so depraved that he has lost his freedom, and been placed in bondage. It's the worst kind of bondage, though, because it's a willing bondage. Man is free to serve his own desires. He is a servant to sin, forced through his own nature to serve lusts and pleasures. He lacks the freedom to serve God, to perform true righteousness, and to produce the fruit of holiness. He thinks he can choose, though - just as soon as he no longer has a heart that drinks up iniquity like water. In other words, as soon as he's regenerated. Until then, he is unable to hear and understand with spiritual ears. He can understand notionally, but not spiritually, because he is spiritually dead. He is free, though, to perform the deeds of his father, the Devil, believe lies, and reject the Truth. God's Word has no place in him, he doesn't love God enough to desire Him, and he remains in unbelief.

Is there a reason he doesn't understand? Yes, it's because he's not born again. Is there a reason he doesn't believe? Likewise, it's because he is not born again. Hmmm. This dead, depraved, unbelieving, slave can understand and believe once he's "of God", according to Jesus, but not while he's a child of the Devil.

 

That scripture does not prove inability, there is much scripture that directly shows sinners retain the ability to choose between good and evil.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

If a sin nature is inherited physically from Adam, then nobody got a greater dose than Adam's first son Cain, yet God directly implied that he could do well, and that if he did he would be accepted.

Paul shows that a person obeys the gospel while he was yet a sinner, and that AFTER believing the gospel was set free from sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Paul shows that men are servants or slaves to whom they "yield" themselves, "whether" (option) of sin unto death, "or" (option) of obedience unto righteousness.

Then Paul thanks God that while these persons were servants to sin they obeyed the gospel that was delivered to them.

It was AFTER obeying the gospel, it was THEN that they were made free from sin and BECAME the servants of righteousness.

This absolutely refutes Total Inability and shows that sinners do indeed have the ability to repent and believe the gospel. If they do so, they are THEN made free from sin and BECOME the servants or slaves of righteousness.

Total Inability is FALSE DOCTRINE.

 

t


So a dead person can hear and respond to you in a grave yard, correct?

 

Jesus paid my sin debt in full to the father...He died in my place...

Since I KNOW that God saved me, as I have the inner witness from the Holy Spirit, and have become a new creation in Jesus, and study the Bible, pray, interested to see others know jesus...

Those fruits evidence that I was one of His elect!
He ONLY saves one of His own!