Featured Does Paul's conversion prove Calvinism's teaching on Irresistible Grace?

How does the fact that all men do not have faith equal that faith is God given?

Twice we are told that Jesus "marvelled" in the scriptures, and both times it concerned faith.

First, Jesus marvelled at the centurion's great faith.

Matthew 8

8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Why would Jesus marvel at the centurion's great faith if faith is given by God? Did he not know that his Father had given the centurion great faith? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Second, Jesus marvelled when his fellow countrymen did not believe.

Mark 6

1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Why would Jesus marvel at his fellow countrymen's unbelief if faith is given by God? Did Jesus not know his Father had not given these people faith? This makes no sense at all.

These two passages make absolutely no sense whatsoever if faith is given to men by God. NONE.

 

Jesus was man as well as God. He even learned obedience as a man. I think that's the key to understanding this.

If man "faiths" himself, then he has justified himself, imo. Seeing that God has chosen to justify the heathen by faith(Galatians 3:8).

 

Before Paul traveled the road to Damascus, he was zealous for God, something Calvinism claims is impossible due to his total spiritual inability.
And when he was zealous for God, he also rejected Jesus as the Messiah, something Calvinism claims is impossible due to him being compelled by Irresistible Grace to trust in Jesus. Therefore Calvinism must claim scripture once again does not mean what it says, Paul was not "really" zealous for God. And so it goes, first shuck and then jive.

 

Paul was zealous, yet without knowledge. He thought he was serving God when in fact he was opposing God.

 

What do you think faith is? What do you mean faith yourself?

Do you trust your wife?

Do you trust your brothers and sisters?

Do you trust your Dad?

Do you trust your friends?

What did you have to do to trust them Willis? What?

I can tell you who I trust and who I do not trust, and I can tell you exactly why, and it doesn't have a single thing to do with ME.

 

There sure are a lot of people on here who claim to be Baptist who are posting the most anti-Baptist garbage I've ever come across. If you Calvinists started espousing the junk you believe in, you'd be thrown out of every Baptist church I've ever attended.

 

Well, as you should know, Baptists are not monolithic in their beliefs. By using the term "anti-Baptist" has anyone here advocated paedobaptism for instance?

What exactly, is "junk" in your estimation?

Have you ever been a part of a non-hyper-Arminian congregation?

Would you have railed against Charles Spurgeon and the doctrinal stances of the Metropolitan Tabernacle?

 

Calvinism in all it's forms.

I'm NOT Armenian, nor is any Baptist church I know of.

 

I have not found you to be that knowledgeable about Calvinism. "In all its forms" is a bit of a stretch there b4l. I had asked you about Charles Spurgeon and the Met. Tab. Would you have called that church's doctrinal planks junk?

Are you just pretending to be uninformed or are you really that ignorant? Are you a Lithuanian Baptist by any chance? :tongue3:

 

Baptist4life

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B4L,

You do not understand what the issues are, you do not understand the views ,so why are you always critical? Why not learn something about it then comment....for example;

Armenians and Arminians .....are two different things:thumbs:

 

I misspelled it. You know what I meant. I hate IPads. I believe Scripture which totally refutes Calvinism. I'm a Christian. I don't believe God predistines people to hell, nor do I believe born again believers can lose their salvation. I also have no desire to get in an online argument with anyone. That is why I rarely post. I'm critical because Calvinism is just totally un-Biblical. Carry-on.

 

Baptist4life

Calvinists believe the same scripture.

that is good b4l....

,

Cals do not believe that either.

neither do cals believe that

neither do cals.

.

That is your choice

Every cal in here does not believe you can show this idea you express biblically
:wavey:

 

God predestination refers to His elect. chosen by Him to be found in Christ, not towards the unsaved though!

And Jesus intercededs fo the saints, and the Hol Spirit has sealed us unto glorification day, so we would not see really saved getting relost either!

Understand your feelings, as I was once evangelical arminian, but saw the scriptures keep portraing jesus as the great Shepherd overhis own flock, and that God was the one calling them all out!

 

But according to Calvinism, he would be running from God, not doing his best to serve God. So, since he was serving God zealously, he would have to be under the influence of Irresistible Grace, but since he rejected Jesus as the Messiah, the grace was not irresistible.

So again, all the Calvinists have to offer is scripture does not mean what it says, but actually means the opposite of what it says, i.e. Saul was zealous in his efforts at opposing God. Not how it reads...

 

NO!

saul of tarsus was kicking against the Lord jesus, was resisting God in a sense, but when God basically stated that enough of that, NOW you are getting saved and sent to be my Apostle unto the Gentiles, THAT is when he encountered "irresistable grace"

 

Paul was resisting Jesus, but not God. He did not believe Jesus was the Son of God up to this time, but he certainly believed in God and had a great zeal toward him.

And Paul said of the Jews themselves that they had a zeal for God.

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Acts 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Paul said he bare the Jews record that they have a zeal of God.

Plain as day.

 

This Calvinist again makes the claim that when the inspired scripture says Paul was zealous for God, he really was not. No matter how large the font, its the same shuck and jive.

BTW, Winman's post #136 is spot on!!

 

You have a habit of doing that.

You believe huh? In your estimation Scripture totally refutes Calvinism. And of course you are a Christian --not a Calvinist. Calvinists in your humble estimation lay outside the pale of orthodox Christianity.

So in your opinion the London Confession of 1689 is totally unbiblical? Do you actually read what you criticize?

You haven't answered my repeated question. If Calvinism is so wrong, and from the way you speak it doesn't sound like you think it is in any way, shape, or form Christian --would you be willing to say that the preaching of Charles Spurgeon was unbiblical? The doctrines of Met. Tab. were unscriptural in your view? Have you ever read any of his sermons?

 

Before his conversion of course he was running from the true God and opposing Him with all his mortal power.

Paul was not serving God zealously. How can you say such a silly thing as that?

You are twisted. It is laughable Van.

 

Sinners have a zeal for a false god, and a false religions based upon them meriting favor by good works...

calvinists agree they were zealot for the god of their own understanding, NOT the One of the Bible!