The Post Tribulation Rapture position

[evangelist6589]

What churches and or groups hold to this position? Any of them Calvinist? Typically Reformed are Amill/PostMill but there are those not Reformed but Calvinistic that hold to various interpretations in eschatology. If I had to make a guess I would say the Conservative Baptist Association holds to this view, but its been years since I have been in one of their churches, and there are none in my present state.

I believe the title would be Historic Premill that would hold to the post tribulation view, and frankly I just can't figure out why they could be persuaded of such a view. Anyone here hold to this view?

 

[preachinjesus]

I hold to the historical premillennial position but do not believe it is post-tribulational since I find the notion of a tribulation, set period of time, biblically dubious.

 

[JamesL]

I hold to a Pre-millennial, Post-Tribulation view. It probably helps to nail down what you mean by "rapture".

 

[Yeshua1]

What churches and or groups hold to this position? Any of them Calvinist? Typically Reformed are Amill/PostMill but there are those not Reformed but Calvinistic that hold to various interpretations in eschatology. If I had to make a guess I would say the Conservative Baptist Association holds to this view, but its been years since I have been in one of their churches, and there are none in my present state.

I believe the title would be Historic Premill that would hold to the post tribulation view, and frankly I just can't figure out why they could be persuaded of such a view. Anyone here hold to this view?

My senior pastor holds to the historical pre mil view...

Would say that he sees the rapture and Second Coming as same event...

main differnce between that and Post/A Mil is that those holding to such do see the Lord Jesus setting up his kingdom in full here on earth for 1000 years.. That it comes by Him bringing it, not the church establishing it, nor just referring to his spiritual reigning right now!

 

[Tom Butler]

My first exposure to eschatology in any detail was Hal Lindsey's book, Late, Great Planet Earth, which espoused the dispensational pre-trib rapture view. A new pastor came along, and one Sunday night he preached on the end times from a post-tribulational viewpoint. At the end of the service, we all headed toward him to challenge his view.

He held up his hands and said, "okay, we're not going to debate this tonight. Here's your assignment. Go to your Bibles and find all the scriptures which teach your view. They must be clearly pre-trib, not subject to any other interpretation. Bring them back and then we'll talk."

So we got our Bibles and went to work. But there was a problem. I could not find one single passage which clearly taught pre-trib.

Since there were clear, unmistakably post-trib passages, I switched. That's where I've been for 35 years.

I do see some merit in the A-Mil position, but I'm not there yet.

A relative of mine, who was pre-trib, said that when all is said and done, he was pan-millenial. It's all going to pan out at the end.

 

[Tom Butler]

Two books had a signiicant influence on my adoption of the historic pre-mil position. They are:

The Blessed Hope by George Eldon Ladd, 1956
The Church and the Tribulation by Robert Gundry, 1973.

One of the best defenses of the pre-trib view is Things to Come by J. Dwight Pentecost., 1958.

I think they all are still in print.

 

[Yeshua1]

My first exposure to eschatology in any detail was Hal Lindsey's book, Late, Great Planet Earth, which espoused the dispensational pre-trib rapture view. A new pastor came along, and one Sunday night he preached on the end times from a post-tribulational viewpoint. At the end of the service, we all headed toward him to challenge his view.

He held up his hands and said, "okay, we're not going to debate this tonight. Here's your assignment. Go to your Bibles and find all the scriptures which teach your view. They must be clearly pre-trib, not subject to any other interpretation. Bring them back and then we'll talk."

So we got our Bibles and went to work. But there was a problem. I could not find one single passage which clearly taught pre-trib.

Since there were clear, unmistakably post-trib passages, I switched. That's where I've been for 35 years.

I do see some merit in the A-Mil position, but I'm not there yet.

A relative of mine, who was pre-trib, said that when all is said and done, he was pan-millenial. It's all going to pan out at the end.

Think that the grey area would be indeed in the the timing of the rapture question, as still hold to it being pre trib, but can see support for mid/post also,,,

To me still though, IF one adopts a consisent literal approach to prophecy, still see the Pre Mil position being the viable one!

 

[Yeshua1]

Two books had a signiicant influence on my adoption of the historic pre-mil position. They are:

The Blessed Hope by George Eldon Ladd, 1956
The Church and the Tribulation by Robert Gundry, 1973.

One of the best defenses of the pre-trib view is Things to Come by J. Dwight Pentecost., 1958.

I think they all are still in print.

Ah, GE Ladd was out NT Theology author in school, still remember years later his "Kingdom here now, but now fully here now!"

 

[Tom Butler]

Think that the grey area would be indeed in the the timing of the rapture question, as still hold to it being pre trib, but can see support for mid/post also,,,

To me still though, IF one adopts a consisent literal approach to prophecy, still see the Pre Mil position being the viable one!

What scriptures do you rely on to support pre-trib?

 

[Yeshua1]

What scriptures do you rely on to support pre-trib?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 Nasb
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

Revelation 3:10 Nasb
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Revelation 4:1 HCSB
After this I looked, and there in heaven was an open door. The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

 

[Tom Butler]

Thanks, Yeshua. I'll try to comment on them soon. In the meantime, I hope others will share their exegesis (or is that exegesises).

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks, Yeshua. I'll try to comment on them soon. In the meantime, I hope others will share their exegesis (or is that exegesises).

Also, please remember that I see prophecy in the light of having it understood in a literal sense, and that I see the Wrath to come as being, depending upon contex of passages, can refer to either final judgement for sins, or else great tribulation, as God pours His wrath out in last days!

 

[RLBosley]

What churches and or groups hold to this position? Any of them Calvinist? Typically Reformed are Amill/PostMill but there are those not Reformed but Calvinistic that hold to various interpretations in eschatology. If I had to make a guess I would say the Conservative Baptist Association holds to this view, but its been years since I have been in one of their churches, and there are none in my present state.

I believe the title would be Historic Premill that would hold to the post tribulation view, and frankly I just can't figure out why they could be persuaded of such a view. Anyone here hold to this view?

I do not about any specific groups or anything that holds to historic pre-mill exclusively, but there are plenty of Calvinists who do. I'm one. My pastor is another, though the church is mostly pre-trib dispy.

I was raised pre-trib, but upon actually examining the texts, i have the opposite reaction you do, I frankly can't figure out how anyone can be persuaded of pre-trib, it's just not there.

I hold to the historical premillennial position but do not believe it is post-tribulational since I find the notion of a tribulation, set period of time, biblically dubious.

:thumbsup: Same here, sort of. I think the entire period between the ascension and the second coming is a time of tribulation for the church. But nothing like what the dispys make "The Tribulation" out to be.

Two books had a signiicant influence on my adoption of the historic pre-mil position. They are:

The Blessed Hope by George Eldon Ladd, 1956
The Church and the Tribulation by Robert Gundry, 1973.

One of the best defenses of the pre-trib view is Things to Come by J. Dwight Pentecost., 1958.

I think they all are still in print.

Reading The Blessed Hope right now. I'm not on board with his adherence to a 7 year trib, but everything else is pretty on point so far.

 

[RLBosley]

Thanks, Yeshua. I'll try to comment on them soon. In the meantime, I hope others will share their exegesis (or is that exegesises).

I hope you don't mind if I take a stab at it.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 Nasb
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

The wrath here is the wrath of God's eternal judgment of the wicked, not some tribulation period. The other 2 uses of wrath (orge) in 1 Thess (2:16; 5:9) supports this as both times refers to the future judgment of nonbelievers.

This is one major problem with dispensationalism, it constantly confuses tribulation with wrath, when scripture does not make that connection.

Revelation 3:10 Nasb
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

This was a specific promise to a single church in Asia Minor, not something promised to the universal church of all time. (Yes I know there are all kinds of debates on what the churches here symbolize or typify, but I'm unconvinced and would prefer to stick to the literal interpretation. )

This can't be referring to any future "Tribulation" for 2 main reasons:

1. This hour of testing was then, 2000 years ago, "about to come."
2. This church does not exist today, and has not for centuries so either the rapture was WAY more pre-trib than the dispys think (and localized) or the verse is being misinterpreted.

Revelation 4:1 HCSB
After this I looked, and there in heaven was an open door. The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

This was simply what John saw and heard when he was called up into Heaven to receive further visions. There is no mention of a gathering together of the church into Heaven, only John. God's voice sounds like a trumpet in other places in scripture and Heaven is opened up in other places in scripture, there is no reason to say this is the rapture.

 

[Revmitchell]

This is one major problem with dispensationalism, it constantly confuses tribulation with wrath, when scripture does not make that connection.

We certainly see it that way but we are in no way "confused". That conclusion has been reached after careful exegesis of scripture.

 

[convicted1]

main differnce between that and Post/A Mil is that those holding to such do see the Lord Jesus setting up his kingdom in full here on earth for 1000 years.. That it comes by Him bringing it, not the church establishing it, nor just referring to his spiritual reigning right now!

I don't know of any who hold to the amil position that believes the Kingdom will be set up on earth...or at least I don't.

 

[JamesL]

We certainly see it that way but we are in no way "confused"..

That's your confusion speaking there. Much like someone in a mental hospital not seeing that he's crazy.

That conclusion has been reached after careful exegesis of scripture.

You spend too much time on this board to do any serious bible study.

I heard someone say once, that those who are looking for a PreTrib rapture will be the first to take the mark of the beast. Why is that?

Because they are not expecting to see the beast. They're expecting to be gone before he's revealed. So he can't be the beast. This cant the mark.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know of any who hold to the amil position that believes the Kingdom will be set up on earth...or at least I don't.

mond coming,

I might have mistated it, meant to say that the post Mil do see the 1000 years here on earth, but that is the time when the Church has brought the kingdom to earth, like a Kingdom now, and a second coming after that time...

while A mils see it meaning jesus has been ruling from hedaven in a spiritual sense, and he will have a second coming to bring all things to completion!

Both pre/post mils see a literal esbalishment of the full Kingdom here on earth, just one sees it done by Jesus at second coming, another by the church, tpo precede second coming!

 

[Yeshua1]

I hope you don't mind if I take a stab at it.




The wrath here is the wrath of God's eternal judgment of the wicked, not some tribulation period. The other 2 uses of wrath (orge) in 1 Thess (2:16; 5:9) supports this as both times refers to the future judgment of nonbelievers.

This is one major problem with dispensationalism, it constantly confuses tribulation with wrath, when scripture does not make that connection.




This was a specific promise to a single church in Asia Minor, not something promised to the universal church of all time. (Yes I know there are all kinds of debates on what the churches here symbolize or typify, but I'm unconvinced and would prefer to stick to the literal interpretation. )

This can't be referring to any future "Tribulation" for 2 main reasons:

1. This hour of testing was then, 2000 years ago, "about to come."
2. This church does not exist today, and has not for centuries so either the rapture was WAY more pre-trib than the dispys think (and localized) or the verse is being misinterpreted.



This was simply what John saw and heard when he was called up into Heaven to receive further visions. There is no mention of a gathering together of the church into Heaven, only John. God's voice sounds like a trumpet in other places in scripture and Heaven is opened up in other places in scripture, there is no reason to say this is the rapture.

the 7 churches in revelation are a type of churches/assembles that would be throughout history, until his coming again!

And the "coming soon" does not mean had to happen right then and there, but tht when the things do start to happen, it will get done quickly!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Hey, you want a discussion? Fine. Spew away your own positions. But DO NOT ATTACK those who would differ, or you will find yourself on the outside looking in at this discussion.

BTW, I am so pre-trib, pre-mill that I don't even eat Post Toasties.