The Post Tribulation Rapture position

[JamesL]

the 7 churches in revelation are a type of churches/assembles that would be throughout history, until his coming again!

Where does scripture state that these 7 churches represent historic periods?

 

[Yeshua1]

Where does scripture state that these 7 churches represent historic periods?

,

there were 7 churches that existed in time of John writting and they represent different kinds of assemblies that will be present upon earth until jesus returns!

 

[JamesL]

,

there were 7 churches that existed in time of John writting and they represent different kinds of assemblies that will be present upon earth until jesus returns!

Ok. You've said it twice now, but I asked where does scripture state this.

 

[RLBosley]

the 7 churches in revelation are a type of churches/assembles that would be throughout history, until his coming again!

Again, the text does not say that. Therefore, the literal interpretation would be to see this as a specific promise to a specific 1st century congregation in Philadelphia. Can these characteristics be applied to assemblies throughout history? Probably. However that is speculative at best.

But lets assume you are right, that it really is a symbol or type of churches throughout history, does that mean that only 1 in 7 congregations will be raptured? This is the only church promised to be spared the period of "testing" spoken of here, so if you are going to be consistent, then the only conclusion is that only about 1 in 7 churches will be raptured.

Also, there is no evidence that this time of "testing" or "temptation" is the so-called Tribulation period. That is being read into the text.

And the "coming soon" does not mean had to happen right then and there, but tht when the things do start to happen, it will get done quickly!

It says "about to come" in the NASB. Other versions simply say "that is coming." The language gives a sense of immediacy at the time it was written. not 2000+ years later.

 

[RLBosley]

We certainly see it that way but we are in no way "confused". That conclusion has been reached after careful exegesis of scripture.

Can you show any verse that uses wrath and tribulation interchangeably?

Romans 2:9 is the only verse that is even arguably used in such a way that I'm aware off, and even then it is talking about eternal judgement, in the form of affliction from God, not some future "Great Tribulation."

 

[RLBosley]

BTW, I am so pre-trib, pre-mill that I don't even eat Post Toasties.

:laugh: That's hilarious.

 

[Revmitchell]

Can you show any verse that uses wrath and tribulation interchangeably?

Romans 2:9 is the only verse that is even arguably used in such a way that I'm aware off, and even then it is talking about eternal judgement, in the form of affliction from God, not some future "Great Tribulation."

Sure

Zep 1:15 A day of wrath is that day, a day of distress and anguish, a day of ruin and devastation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Here the same day is referred to as both wrath and tribulation (distress and anguish) as the previous word distress means tribulation.

Rev 6:16 calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?

Rev 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."

Rev 16:7 And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, Lord God the Almighty, true and just are your judgments!"

Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

These passage is talking about the activities during the "tribulation" period.

 

[RLBosley]

Sure

Here the same day is referred to as both wrath and tribulation (distress and anguish) as the previous word distress means tribulation.

I don't understand how you get distress to mean tribulation here? Is there something in the Hebrew that indicates that?

These passage is talking about the activities during the "tribulation" period.

Yes, but those are specific events that are the wrath of God poured out on the wicked, not a period of time that can be called the wrath of God.

I think we may have misunderstood each other somewhere. I was saying that the dispensationalist sees the "tribulation" period as the wrath of God. Then, since we are told that we are spared the wrath of God, they insist on a pre-trib rapture. I however, deny that this "tribulation" is a period of God's wrath, since the word tribulation never means wrath in scripture. I wasn't saying that if a period called the "Tribulation" exists that God's wrath isn't released during that time. Make sense?

 

[kyredneck]

Ok. You've said it twice now, but I asked where does scripture state this.

:thumbsup: ....keep pounding the parrot on that point....

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you show any verse that uses wrath and tribulation interchangeably?

Romans 2:9 is the only verse that is even arguably used in such a way that I'm aware off, and even then it is talking about eternal judgement, in the form of affliction from God, not some future "Great Tribulation."

So when Jesus warned us of a coming tribulation time in the Future, like NONE other in History, and that unless he intervened to halt it, ALL would perish, he was mistaken?

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't understand how you get distress to mean tribulation here? Is there something in the Hebrew that indicates that?



Yes, but those are specific events that are the wrath of God poured out on the wicked, not a period of time that can be called the wrath of God.

I think we may have misunderstood each other somewhere. I was saying that the dispensationalist sees the "tribulation" period as the wrath of God. Then, since we are told that we are spared the wrath of God, they insist on a pre-trib rapture. I however, deny that this "tribulation" is a period of God's wrath, since the word tribulation never means wrath in scripture. I wasn't saying that if a period called the "Tribulation" exists that God's wrath isn't released during that time. Make sense?

So when revelation has this time period as when the wrath of goid is being poured out upon those who rejected jesus, and upon the world systems, it is not really Wrath?

 

[MNJacob]

Back to the OP.

Most serious Presbyterians are Post Mill.

 

[Yeshua1]

Back to the OP.

Most serious Presbyterians are Post Mill.

That would mean the Church here ushers in the time of Jesus reigning here on earth, and once that happens, he returns to usher in Final State, correct?

Like what Charasmatics call "Kingdom Now?"

 

[RLBosley]

So when Jesus warned us of a coming tribulation time in the Future, like NONE other in History, and that unless he intervened to halt it, ALL would perish, he was mistaken?

Jesus did not warn of a coming "tribulation time" he warned of a period OF tribulation. That may seem like hair splitting but it is really a HUGE difference. Jesus was warning of a time of increased persecution and attacks against the church and unrest in the world, not a 7 year period of time 2,000+ years later where God indiscriminately pours out his wrath on the wicked. Utter nonsense.

So when revelation has this time period as when the wrath of goid is being poured out upon those who rejected jesus, and upon the world systems, it is not really Wrath?

Did you read what I said? Go back, reread it, then post again.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus did not warn of a coming "tribulation time" he warned of a period OF tribulation. That may seem like hair splitting but it is really a HUGE difference. Jesus was warning of a time of increased persecution and attacks against the church and unrest in the world, not a 7 year period of time 2,000+ years later where God indiscriminately pours out his wrath on the wicked. Utter nonsense.



Did you read what I said? Go back, reread it, then post again.

Do you see the Antichrist as just a system, or that was already fulfilled?

And the time of jacob's Troubles are part of the great day of the Lord, yet to come, when God prepares national Israel to meet their coming Messiah!

 

[RLBosley]

Do you see the Antichrist as just a system, or that was already fulfilled?

And the time of jacob's Troubles are part of the great day of the Lord, yet to come, when God prepares national Israel to meet their coming Messiah!

I'm not sure about the "Antichrist." I don't even like the term because scripture never gives that name to a super bad guy at the end of the age. But, I lean toward the beast in Revelation being either the Roman Papacy or a world system. I could be wrong though.

And the time of Jacob's trouble was the Babylonian captivity I believe, not something in the future.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not sure about the "Antichrist." I don't even like the term because scripture never gives that name to a super bad guy at the end of the age. But, I lean toward the beast in Revelation being either the Roman Papacy or a world system. I could be wrong though.

And the time of Jacob's trouble was the Babylonian captivity I believe, not something in the future.

Even though the Bible calls him also the man of Sin, Son of perdition, that the world will worship him and his image?

 

[RLBosley]

Even though the Bible calls him also the man of Sin, Son of perdition, that the world will worship him and his image?

I don't see the necessity in connecting all those terms together. Regardless, if such a eschatological bad guy exists, then why not call him one of those titles, or the beast, instead of a term applied to false and apostate "believers"?

 

[KRJ]

But, I lean toward the beast in Revelation being either the Roman Papacy.....

I believe he will be the 12th Imam or Mahdi, not the Pope.

.....or a world system.

I believe it will be a revived Islamic Caliphate not the RCC, not a revived Roman Empire, and not the EU.

I could be wrong though.

So could I. But I believe the end times system will be Islam.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I believe he will be the 12th Imam or Mahdi, not the Pope.

I've recently come to that conclusion as well, KRJ. I don't believe the antichrist comes out of any Christian denomination.

I believe it will be a revived Islamic Caliphate not the RCC, not a revived Roman Empire, and not the EU.

Consider how big the old Roman Empire was. It covered most of Europe, the Mideast and North Africa. Coming out of Islam, the antichrist would still fit that description.d

So could I. But I believe the end times system will be Islam.

More or less, yes. Radical Islam.