Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

[Iconoclast]

In a recent thread ...a poster offered this post which attempts to supply an answer that I think has missed the mark.

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin.

This is a continuation of the picture of baptism:
Romans 6:3 Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection;

Verses 4 and 5 picture our baptism. We are buried with him through baptism to death.
If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death...

Our baptism is a picture. It is symbolic of our death to our sinful life and our resurrection to a new life in Christ. We do not believe in baptismal regeneration. It is purely symbolic. There is nothing that actually happened here. It is symbolic.
What did the water do? It made you wet! It didn't make you any more holy or save you.

Immediately after is verse 6:
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin.
--Knowing this (the meaning and significance of our baptism),
that our old man is crucified with him (symbolically, as in baptism). Literally, the old man was crucified together with Christ. But the old man, that is, the old nature, was not eradicated. It is you, the person. It was rendered powerless at the cross because Christ gained the victory over sin.
--that the body of sin might be done away with: not the human body, but the old nature that controls. It remains powerless at the cross. But we see in chapter 7 that it is still active; still present; still has power.

So that we no longer be in bondage to sin.
This is not a given. This is his will. Victory is ours as long as we look to the cross. Look to what our baptism signifies. If we have died to sin we have risen with Christ, then freed from sin. That is the picture. Can we act like it? It is not a picture of an eradicated sin nature

.

Do you agree that this passage has not been correctly understood?
Which parts of this statement can you agree with...and which part do you feel is lacking?

Do you view this passage as speaking of water baptism?
Have you ever viewed this passage as speaking primarily of Spirit baptism?

Then how do you understand vs 6......
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Please speak to the verses or what you feel are related scriptures when you reply.:love2::love2:

 

[Iconoclast]

In a recent thread ...a poster offered this post which attempts to supply an answer that I think has missed the mark.



Do you agree that this passage has not been correctly understood?
Which parts of this statement can you agree with...and which part do you feel is lacking?

Do you view this passage as speaking of water baptism?
Have you ever viewed this passage as speaking primarily of Spirit baptism?

Then how do you understand vs 6......
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Please speak to the verses or what you feel are related scriptures when you reply.:love2::love2:

here from an article by a Christian reformed pastor arguing about the mode of baptism...Angus Stewart offered this;

John Owen’s analysis is similar:



There is not one word nor one expression that mentions any resemblance between dipping under water and the death and burial of Christ, nor one word that mentions a resemblance between our rising out of the water and the resurrection of Christ. Our being "buried with him by baptism into death" [Rom. 6:4] is our being "planted together in the likeness of his death," verse 5. Our being "planted together in the likeness of his death" is not our being dipped under water, but "the crucifying of the old man," verse 6. Our being "raised up with Christ from the dead" is not our rising from under the water, but our "walking in newness of life," verse 4, by virtue of the resurrection of Christ, I Pet. iii. 21.[68]

What then is the apostle saying? He has just shown that justification is by faith alone and not by the works of man (Rom. 1-5). Someone might respond: "Let us sin that grace may abound!" (cf. 6:1). The apostle first states (v. 2) and then proves (vv. 3ff.) that we are dead to sin. He reminds us of our union with Christ. In Romans 5:12-21, he spoke of our union with Him with regard to blessings: justification, righteousness, life and grace. Now he speaks of our union with Christ with respect to His great redemptive acts. To which event does Paul point to show believers are dead to sin? Not to His ascension into heaven or session at God's right hand (as Eph. 2:6), but to His death and burial, of course (Rom. 6:2ff.).
Since the Christian's position is not merely negative (dead to sin) but positive (alive to God), the apostle goes on to speak of our resurrection with Christ (vv. 4ff.). Thus the apostle refers to our baptism "into Christ" (v. 3). We are engrafted and united to Christ by the Spirit. Paul puts this first. Since we are united to Christ, therefore, we share in His death, burial and resurrection.

In other words, partaking of Christ's death and resurrection is through baptism into Him. It has nothing to do with our physical descent into and ascent from water, nor is it signified thereby.

Robert Harbach's analysis bears repeating:



The object of Paul's words is not to show that Christians ought to walk in newness of life because [they were] figuratively raised from a watery grave in a symbolic ritual, but because [they were] spiritually, objectively, historically, unitedly, corporately and representatively raised ... through the death [of Christ].[69]

:wavey::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

John Murray offers this;

Redemption from the power of sin may be called the triumphal aspect of redemption. In his finished work Christ did something once for all respecting the power of sin and it is in virtue of this victory which he secured that the power of sin is broken in all those who are united to him.

It is in this connection that a strand of New Testament teaching needs to be appreciated but which is frequently overlooked.



It is that not only is Christ regarded as having died for the believer but the believer is represented as having died in Christ and as having been raised up with him to newness of life. This is the result of union with Christ.

For by this union Christ is not only united to those who have been given to him but they are united with him. Hence not only did Christ die for them but they died in him and rose with him (cf. Rom. 6:1-10; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15; Eph. 2:1-7; Col. 3:1-4; 1 Pet. 4:1,2).



It is this fact of having died with Christ in the efficacy of his death and of having risen with him in the power of his resurrection that ensure for all the people of God deliverance from the dominion of sin. It supplies the ground for the exhortation, “Even so reckon ye yourselves to be dead indeed to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 6:11) and gives force to the apodictic assurance, “Sin shall not have dominion over you” (Rom. 6:14).



It is this fact of having died and risen with Christ, viewed as an implication of the death and resurrection of Christ once for all accomplished, that provides the basis of the sanctifying process. And it is constantly pleaded as the urge and incentive to sanctification in the practice of the believer.

~John Murray, Redemption Accomplished and Applied, 48-49.

These quotes and verses clearly demonstrate this truth-

Carefully mark the Gk. verbs in Rom. 6:2–10. They are all in the
aorist tense and ought to be translated as a past event [“died” rather than
“dead” or “are dead”] to be reckoned as an objective, present reality, not a
merely possible state which is to be sought as a subjective religious
experience,


i.e., “are enabled more and more to die unto sin.” The inescapable
conclusion is that union in the death of Christ necessarily means that the
reigning power of sin has been broken in the life of the believer—every
believer. The Scriptures neither teach a two–stage salvation or sanctification,
nor do they contrast a “carnal” and “spiritual” Christian as normal to the
Christian life.....WR.Downing

 

[convicted1]

Baptism spoken of here in Romans 6 is referring to Spiritual baptism, imo. If the water was all the poster said it is, then we could save everyone by sticking them under water.

We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, and not H20....

 

[kyredneck]

In other words, partaking of Christ's death and resurrection is through baptism into Him. It has nothing to do with our physical descent into and ascent from water, nor is it signified thereby.

Robert Harbach's analysis bears repeating:

The object of Paul's words is not to show that Christians ought to walk in newness of life because [they were] figuratively raised from a watery grave in a symbolic ritual, but because [they were] spiritually, objectively, historically, unitedly, corporately and representatively raised ... through the death [of Christ].[

I agree, the text is not referring to water baptism but to our spiritual immersion into Christ.

But there is a 'saving' from water baptism when it is correctly viewed as an act of profession, i.e., confessing Christ as Lord.

 

[Iconoclast]

Did John Murray suggest how this is such a vital doctrine in his writing...yes he did on page 164 he offers this-

What is it that binds past and present and future together in the life of faith and in the hope of glory?

Why does the believer entertain the thought of God's determinate counsel with such joy?

Why can he have patience in the perplexities and adversities of the present?

Why can he have confident assurance with reference to the future and rejoice in hope of the glory of God?

It is because he cannot think of past ,present, or future apart from union with Christ,

 

[Iconoclast]

Baptism spoken of here in Romans 6 is referring to Spiritual baptism, imo. If the water was all the poster said it is, then we could save everyone by sticking them under water.

We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, and not H20....

You are correct once again my brother:thumbs::applause::thumbs:...
I am enjoying these solid statements as I pull them up because they are meant to be a great blessing and joy....why they are overlooked is a mystery.

 

[Revmitchell]

Baptism spoken of here in Romans 6 is referring to Spiritual baptism, imo. If the water was all the poster said it is, then we could save everyone by sticking them under water.

We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, and not H20....

What? That view is not only wrong it is not orthodox.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree, the text is not referring to water baptism but to our spiritual immersion into Christ.

But there is a 'saving' from water baptism when it is correctly viewed as an act of profession, i.e., confessing Christ as Lord.

You are also completely correct KYRED......it is UNION with CHRIST....effected by the Spirit who binds us eternally to God's love.....

and in light of who we are IN UNION WITH CHRIST...the Apostle then points out we are to behave or act as who we are in reality...children of the living God.

Paul basically says the same thing in EPH 5.....what we are to do{Imperatives}
are based upon who we are declared to be{indicatives}


17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;


5 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

 

[Iconoclast]

What? That view is not only wrong it is not orthodox.

RM...how so?

Does water quicken us...or the Spirit of God?

By application this passage is used by Baptists in describing what water baptism symbolizes....that is the reality of what Spirit baptism has done on our behalf.

If you see water here primarily...that would be speaking of baptismal regeneration that none of us hold to....correct???

 

[convicted1]

What? That view is not only wrong it is not orthodox.

 

[convicted1]

Christ was just as much Christ before He was baptized by John.

We were as much in Christ before being baptized in the water.

Jesus' baptism was a sign to John that the Messiah prophesied of old, was here.

Our water baptism shows the world we now serve Him.

Water baptism doesn't complete the salvation process...

 

[DHK]

Baptism spoken of here in Romans 6 is referring to Spiritual baptism, imo. If the water was all the poster said it is, then we could save everyone by sticking them under water.

We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, and not H20....

Did you take the time to read carefully the quote that Icon posted in the OP?
Here is one part you may have missed:

Verses 4 and 5 picture our baptism. We are buried with him through baptism to death.
If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death...

Our baptism is a picture. It is symbolic of our death to our sinful life and our resurrection to a new life in Christ. We do not believe in baptismal regeneration. It is purely symbolic. There is nothing that actually happened here. It is symbolic.
What did the water do? It made you wet! It didn't make you any more holy or save you.

Wherever the post comes from there is no suggestion that water saves as you infer. On the contrary, the exact opposite is strongly affirmed.

 

[Iconoclast]

In the quote from the OP...the poster said this-

Our baptism is a picture. It is symbolic of our death to our sinful life and our resurrection to a new life in Christ

.

Here speaking about water baptism...the conclusion offered is....It is symbolic

However if Paul is speaking of Spirit baptism ...it is actual....see it?

from post 3

Carefully mark the Gk. verbs in Rom. 6:2–10. They are all in the
aorist tense and ought to be translated as a past event [“died” rather than
“dead” or “are dead”] to be reckoned as an objective, present reality, not a
merely possible state which is to be sought as a subjective religious
experience,

We do not believe in baptismal regeneration.

Agreed...so this passage CANNOT be speaking of water baptism primarily.....see this??

It is purely symbolic.

Water baptism is a picture...an outward picture of the truth and reality of our inward and very real Union with Christ that can clearly be shown from scripture!
so this idea is to be rejected.....

There is nothing that actually happened here.

Paul did not say.........nothing has happened......he said the old man was crucified with Christ....that is the great truth that is being dismissed....which if read correctly...no one would believe that...even the person who posted it!

It is symbolic.

wrong , because water is not in view primarily...only as an application of this reality.
The bible gives us the PICTURE...we are not to guess at what this means.

What did the water do? It made you wet! It didn't make you any more holy or save you.

water baptism has a purpose...but this is not it.

 

[JamesL]

One of my biggest problems with the spiritual baptism view is that Paul did not stop at"baptized", but also went in to mention "raised"

Considering that he squarely equates it to an identification with Christ's death and resurrection, we must consider the method of His burial and resurrection.

Jesus was "buried" in a tomb, then "raised" OUT OF that tomb.

So, if this "burial" of baptism is speaking of being baptized (buried) into Christ, then BY NECESSITY we would be "raised" OUT OF Christ to walk in newness of life.

We would need to be raised out of that which we were buried into, otherwise it would not be a picture of and identification with His burial and resurrection

?? Doesn't make sense to be raised out of Christ

 

[Iconoclast]

Christ was just as much Christ before He was baptized by John.

We were as much in Christ before being baptized in the water.

Jesus' baptism was a sign to John that the Messiah prophesied of old, was here.

Our water baptism shows the world we now serve Him.

Water baptism doesn't complete the salvation process...

The biblical picture given to us in a few different places Con 1 let me offer them to you before this thread spirals out of control..{ not that it ever does on BB]

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[Iconoclast]

One of my biggest problems with the spiritual baptism view is that Paul did not stop at"baptized", but also went in to mention "raised"

Considering that he squarely equates it to an identification with Christ's death and resurrection, we must consider the method of His burial and resurrection.

Jesus was "buried" in a tomb, then "raised" OUT OF that tomb.

So, if this "burial" of baptism is speaking of being baptized (buried) into Christ, then BY NECESSITY we would be "raised" OUT OF Christ to walk in newness of life.

We would need to be raised out of that which we were buried into, otherwise it would not be a picture of and identification with His burial and resurrection

?? Doesn't make sense to be raised out of Christ

James L

Spirit baptism is our identification with Christ in reality...in His death and in his resurrection......we died in Him and we are raised in Him.....

look at 1 cor 10...they were baptized unto Moses..[identified with him and His message...they passed through death-----the water----unharmed because they were rightly related to it, having identified with Moses....

the same with Noah..1 pet 3...they were rightly related to the death of the floodwaters and safe in the ARK{ Christ Jesus} the water was death to the unbelievers...the world of the ungodly who did not believe the word preached...but those who were saved through it had the "answer" of a good conscience toward God.:thumbs:

 

[JamesL]

James L

Spirit baptism is our identification with Christ in reality...in His death and in his resurrection......we died in Him and we are raised in Him.....

But that does not answer the problem of being buried into something and being raised out of that same something. Jesus was buried in a tomb, and raised out of that same tomb.

If we are buried into Christ, then we must be raised out of Christ.

look at 1 cor 10...they were baptized unto Moses..[identified with him and His message...they passed through death-----the water----unharmed because they were rightly related to it, having identified with Moses....

the same with Noah..1 pet 3...they were rightly related to the death of the floodwaters and safe in the ARK{ Christ Jesus} the water was death to the unbelievers...the world of the ungodly who did not believe the word preached...but those who were saved through it had the "answer" of a good conscience toward God.:thumbs:

Yes, the people identified with Moses. And they passed through water. In other words - they went in the midst of the water, then came out of the very same water. They passed through.

Same with Noah. They were immersed in water in the flood, then when the water receded they were brought out of it.

The point is that they were "baptized" into something (water), and came back out of the same

Now, I'm not arguing for water baptism being merely an outward sign. I believe there is spiritual efficacy in water baptism. Not regeneration, or justification, or anything of the sort. I believe our conscience is cleansed when we are water baptized, in much the same way it is cleansed through confession of sin afterward (1John 1:9). This cleansing of the conscience is what enables us to walk un newness of life - forgetting the things we left behind.

Ananias told Paul to get up, be baptized and wash his sins away. What did he mean?

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is another testimony:

Election of certain individuals to salvation is election to bestow upon them such influences of the Spirit as will lead them not only to accept Christ, but to persevere and be saved. Union with Christ is indissoluble; regeneration is the beginning of a work of new creation, which is declared in justification, and completed in sanctification. All these doctrines are parts of a general scheme, which would come to naught if any single Christian were permitted to fall away. —A. H. Strong, Systematic Theology, pp. 882-883. Fleming H. Revell Company, 1954

 

[Iconoclast]

JamesL

If we are buried into Christ, then we must be raised out of Christ.

We are not said to be "buried into Christ"...we are said to be united to Him ......when He died, we died...when he rose we rose.

Yes, the people identified with Moses. And they passed through water. In other words - they went in the midst of the water, then came out of the very same water. They passed through.

The same water was death to the Egyptians.....they were not savingly identified with moses in the place of safety!

Sometimes Presbyterians make fun of Baptists and they say ...[the only people were immersed in the flood, or the red sea were the Egyptians, or the world of the ungodly.....immersion was death to them.

They prove our point by trying to make fun of us!:wavey:

The water was death...forget the tomb.....it is speaking of death...the immersion is speaking of passing from death to life.{IN JESUS}