Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

[The Biblicist]

DHK



My old man was crucified, I am not sure about yours. It is not a misrepresentation at all. You said it.... How many times to I have to go back and pull up what you said to show you said it????

posted by DHK
[/B]

Iconoclast, the argument can be settled easily by verse 7 and the word "freed". Your position is that we are freed from sin due to the baptism in the Spirit, however, the word "freed" is the same Greek term consistently used by Paul and translated "justified" and so Paul is not talking about spiritual union, or the baptism in the Spirit but "being JUSTIFIED from sin." That is why we must "reckon" it so, as that is our LEGAL position. The power to make it so comes from the imparted resurrection life by quickening and that power is also accessed by faith (Col. 2:6).

Verse 7 cannot possibly be interpreted to refer to "spiritual union" and it opens with "for" which means he is continuing from verse 6 to further support his previous statement about baptism in verses 4-6. Therefore, this is baptism in water and not spirit baptism as spirit baptism has NOTHING to do with justification and the baptism in water is DECLARATIVE of our position in Christ just as "justification" is DELCARATIVE of our LEGAL STANDING.

Case closed!

 

[DHK]

DHK
My old man was crucified, I am not sure about yours. It is not a misrepresentation at all. You said it.... How many times to I have to go back and pull up what you said to show you said it????

No, your opinion does not make it fact. As Biblicist has taught you, the believer is dead positionally or legally, but not practically. He must put the old man to death every day.
Just because you say something is true doesn't make it so.
If you say the moon is made of green cheese doesn't make it true does it?

I answered you;
DHK...this is one of the roots of the difference here....He did not say with the OLD MAN I serve the law of sin....he did say with the flesh
I believe I posted this recently...as unsaved we were all in bodies that were affected by the fall, that have the motions of sin in them...
we had also the old man, the sin nature controlling the sinful motions of the flesh....the old man liked the fleshly suggestions and chased after them.They were on the same page,so to speak....

Now in Christ.....we are new creation...one new man....
the body still has the motions of sin...but the new man now resists and mortifies these sinful desires of the flesh.

Now In Christ we can begin to serve God and live holy .

You know as well as I do, that you do not serve God and live holy 100% of the time. Much of the time you live "in the flesh." That is your flesh causes you to sin, not the new man, not the Holy Spirit. That flesh, that Paul refers to, is the flesh nature or the old man. That is what he is speaking about. It is just another synonym for the same thing, the same person.
It does not refer to the body. The body is a house (2Cor.5:1-10). It is nothing but chemicals which one day will turn to dust, and another day will be raised to be an incorruptible body. This fleshly body is controlled either by a new man or an old man, whichever the mind (you) decide it to be. The battle is in the mind.

You repeat this foul question over and over.You will never see me post such a thing. I think it is offensive to ask this bogus question.

Then perhaps it will sink in. If there is no old nature, you have nothing left to blame sin on but the Holy Spirit, the new nature. Can't you see that?

another repeated falsehood as it is you who actually believe man did not fully die at the fall....your adam was only wounded.

That is not what the Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
--It does not say that we didn't fully die; we all died--completely.
At salvation the image of God was partially restored, but not fully.
It will not fully be restored until Christ comes again.
Until then we will continue to have the old man reside within.

Your denial of the reality of this old man is a denial of the depravity of man. Sad.

I have repeatedly answered your questions,others saw the answers and told you so. Repeating your falsehoods is not changing anything.

Answered? Maybe. Refuted, never.

I just posted three times you say the old man is not dead.....

You posted a falsehood. Own up to it.
I never said anything about an old man "moving about the body."
Those are your words, not man. I simply said that the old man is not dead.

Ignored the answers that's what.

I have but you obviously have never studied the whole teaching at all so you offer an opinion on nwhat you do not even know anything about.
That does not seem very wise now does it?

In reality you want me to define it for you as you are quite clueless on this, then like Y1 who starts a thread on it...but has no idea what it is when asked.

If you really wanted to understand it I would help...but it is clear you are resisting anything that comes your way....then claim I did not answer you???

You have talked about spirit baptism, but never defined it. In reality I don't believe you know what it is. You just throw the term around without any serious definition.

The command is based on the past completed action...do not twist what has been posted...

Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin.
You must do it now. If it is a command there is nothing past about it. You don't seem to get this. There is no such thing as a command in the past. Commands are always in the present. For example in the Great Commission: "Go into all the world.." (you) go. You right now go.
You right not reckon yourself to be dead to sin. It is something that must be done now, daily, every day, perhaps every minute of every day. Crucify yourself every day.
That is why Jesus said: "Take up your cross daily." Put yourself to death every day. There is no past action involved.

in light of the FACT the old man was crucified
reckon it to be a fact and live accordingly...very simple for most of us to grasp.

The past action was positional. It is a present action to be done every day.
The same is true with sanctification. Sanctification happened positionally at salvation. Practically it must go on every day. It is progressive.

John Owen’s analysis is similar:

~John Murray, Redemption Accomplished and Applied, 48-49.

John Owen was a Puritan holding high Calvinist beliefs. He went from being a Puritan to a Presbyterian to a Congregationalist, but maintaining his strict Calvinist views. His constant involvement in politics may also have affected his religious views.

Murray was a Presbyterian that even many Reformed Baptists rejected because of his extreme views of covenantalism.

You quote from these men as authorities, but I have no reason to accept their very biased views.

 

[convicted1]

Alrighty fellers, answer me this....


13 neither present ye your members instruments of unrighteousness to the sin, but present yourselves to God as living out of the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God;


16 and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness.


19 In the manner of men I speak, because of the weakness of your flesh, for even as ye did present your members servants to the uncleanness and to the lawlessness -- to the lawlessness, so now present your members servants to the righteousness -- to sanctification,

22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit -- to sanctification, and the end life age-during;



1) How can water baptism make one a righteous servant?

2) If it literally does all of this, how can one go be with Him w/o being baptized?

*****Bumparoo*****

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist

Case closed!

Case reopened

Iconoclast, the argument can be settled easily by verse 7 and the word "freed". Your position is that we are freed from sin due to the baptism in the Spirit, however, the word "freed" is the same Greek term consistently used by Paul and translated "justified" and so Paul is not talking about spiritual union, or the baptism in the Spirit but "being JUSTIFIED from sin."

SB and union with Christ is the very reason we are justified....being found in Him we are justified. I do not understand why or how you miss this.

That is why we must "reckon" it so, as that is our LEGAL position. The power to make it so comes from the imparted resurrection life by quickening and that power is also accessed by faith (Col. 2:6).

it is our legal position and it is completed...so we are to reckon that a fact and behave accordingly.

Verse 7 cannot possibly be interpreted to refer to "spiritual union" and it opens with "for" which means he is continuing from verse 6 to further support his previous statement about baptism in verses 4-6. Therefore, this is baptism in water and not spirit baptism as spirit baptism has NOTHING to do with justification and the baptism in water is DECLARATIVE of our position in Christ just as "justification" is DELCARATIVE of our LEGAL STANDING.

this is where I see you in error. The Church as an institution was inaugurated by Spirit baptism...yes...agreed...Keep in mind the church is the individual stones , believers that make up the NT temple,so of necessity they are part of it.

 

[convicted1]

We are the lively stones...the living stones...that make up the Tabernacle....the House....the Church....the Body of Christ. We are immersed....baptized....clothed in Christ's righteousness. God, through being immersed in Christ, sees us through Christ. That's the only thing keeping us from being eternally roasted.....


He lives that we may live also.

We are dead, and our lives are hid with Christ in God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death,.... The nature and end of baptism are here expressed; the nature of it, it is a "burial"; and when the apostle so calls it, he manifestly refers to the ancient and only way of administering this ordinance, by immersion; when a person is covered, and as it were buried in water, as a corpse is when laid the earth, and covered with it: and it is a burial with Christ; it is a representation of the burial of Christ, and of our burial with him as our head and representative, and that "into death"; meaning either the death of Christ as before, that is, so as to partake of the benefits of his death; or the death of sin, of which baptism is also a token; for believers, whilst under water, are as persons buried, and so dead; which signifies not only their being dead with Christ, and their communion with him in his death, but also their being dead to sin by the grace of Christ, and therefore ought not to live in it: for the apostle is still pursuing his argument, and is showing, from the nature, use, and end of baptism, that believers are dead to sin, and therefore cannot, and ought not, to live in it; as more fully appears from the end of baptism next mentioned;


John Gill Commentary

 

[Revmitchell]

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 908
Original Word Word Origin
baptisma from (907)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Baptisma 1:545,92
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
bap'-tis-mah Noun Neuter
Definition
immersion, submersion
of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.
of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of Christ and the church.
In Rom. 6:3 Paul states we are "baptised unto death" meaning that weare not only dead to our former ways, but they are buried. To returnto them is as unthinkable for a Christian as for one to dig up a deadcorpse! In Moslem countries a new believer has little trouble withMoslems until he is publicly baptised. It is then, that the Moslems'know he means business, and then the persecution starts. See alsodiscussion of baptism under No. 907.

NAS Word Usage - Total: 20
baptism 20

NAS Verse Count
Matthew 2
Mark 4
Luke 4
Acts 6
Romans 1
Ephesians 1
Colossians 1
1 Peter 1
Total 20
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Biblicist


Case reopened



SB and union with Christ is the very reason we are justified....being found in Him we are justified. I do not understand why or how you miss this.




it is our legal position and it is completed...so we are to reckon that a fact and behave accordingly.



this is where I see you in error. The Church as an institution was inaugurated by Spirit baptism...yes...agreed...Keep in mind the church is the individual stones , believers that make up the NT temple,so of necessity they are part of it.

That part of us that was under the fall of adam, our flesh, that sin principle will be dealt with in full at glorification!

What part of Icon causes you to sin now though?

new nature/Holy Spirit, or?

 

[convicted1]

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death,.... The nature and end of baptism are here expressed; the nature of it, it is a "burial"; and when the apostle so calls it, he manifestly refers to the ancient and only way of administering this ordinance, by immersion; when a person is covered, and as it were buried in water, as a corpse is when laid the earth, and covered with it: and it is a burial with Christ; it is a representation of the burial of Christ, and of our burial with him as our head and representative, and that "into death"; meaning either the death of Christ as before, that is, so as to partake of the benefits of his death; or the death of sin, of which baptism is also a token; for believers, whilst under water, are as persons buried, and so dead; which signifies not only their being dead with Christ, and their communion with him in his death, but also their being dead to sin by the grace of Christ, and therefore ought not to live in it: for the apostle is still pursuing his argument, and is showing, from the nature, use, and end of baptism, that believers are dead to sin, and therefore cannot, and ought not, to live in it; as more fully appears from the end of baptism next mentioned;


John Gill Commentary

I agree with all of this. It's a picture of what Spiritually happened already.

Now I ask those who hold Romans 6 as immersion in water, can anyone go to heaven w/o immersion?

 

[convicted1]

That part of us that was under the fall of adam, our flesh, that sin principle will be dealt with in full at glorification!

What part of Icon causes you to sin now though?

new nature/Holy Spirit, or?

Again, only your opinion. Why not quote book, chapter and verse to go along with it?


Now, you tell us what this is......

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree with all of this. It's a picture of what Spiritually happened already.

Now I ask those who hold Romans 6 as immersion in water, can anyone go to heaven w/o immersion?

It is not possible you agree with this since he speaks of water immersion and it is a commentary on Romans 6. Unless of course you have changed your mind.

 

[preacher4truth]

*****Bumparoo*****

Correct. It appears that all that are dunked are saved according to what is being said here, Spirit baptism aside, it only matters that said have been dunked under water and popishly declared saved by some baptist preacher for repeating a couple of lines.

Makes for good preaching fodder at their next pulpit invite.

You know, garnering 'amen's' is what is most important. :thumbsup:

It's 'Did you repeat these lines and believe me when I said then you're saved for doing so and you're going to heaven, so don't you ever doubt that, or, are you per Biblical revelation truly converted?'' '"Which is it, do you believe me and my easy-believeism false Gospel, or the revealed balance of God's truth as to what a true believer looks like"?

Hmmmmm.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, only your opinion. Why not quote book, chapter and verse to go along with it?


Now, you tell us what this is......

Paul stated that we have not yet received our full inheritence yet, and that the body of sin will one day be raised up and changed, correct?

 

[DHK]

I agree with all of this. It's a picture of what Spiritually happened already.

Now I ask those who hold Romans 6 as immersion in water, can anyone go to heaven w/o immersion?

The thief on the cross did.

 

[convicted1]

It is not possible you agree with this since he speaks of water immersion and it is a commentary on Romans 6. Unless of course you have changed your mind.

Maybe I misunderstood him, I guess.


Water immersion....baptism....is a picture of what has already inwardly occurred. It adds zero to our salvation, and most assuredly does not make one righteous.

Again, if water does what you guys say it does, then how can one get to heaven w/o it?


Was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Judah, Reuben, Manasseh, Benjamin, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Caleb, Rahab, Ruth, David, Solomon, Micah, Malachi, Jonah, baptized???

 

[convicted1]

The thief on the cross did.

So, then how was he made righteous?

 

[convicted1]

Paul stated that we have not yet received our full inheritence yet, and that the body of sin will one day be raised up and changed, correct?

'Copy n paste' the book, chapter, and verse for me....

 

[convicted1]

Water baptism is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and what He did.


It's like looking at yourself in a mirror. It's a reflection of you, but not you.


If water baptism is the literal interpretation of Romans 6, no one baptized will fail to make it to heaven. But too many baptized prove to be failures I'm afraid.

So, what caused them to fail?

 

[Revmitchell]

If water baptism is the literal interpretation of Romans 6, no one baptized will fail to make it to heaven. But too many baptized prove to be failures I'm afraid.

This is a begging the question fallacy.

 

[DHK]

So, then how was he made righteous?

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: