This morning a Pastor said when Adam ate the forbidden fruit he died spiritually. Is that the correct way to put it? In What Sense Did Adam And Eve Die?
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In What Sense Did Adam And Eve Die?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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quantumfaith
Active Member
For the sake of discussion, what would you say are the options? Are there simply two, physical and/or spiritual death? Or are there others?
Well I'd rather leave that to you good folks. That said did Adams "spirit" die?
They died spiritually that day,and as a consequence they later died physically.
quantumfaith
Active Member
My vote goes for "spiritual death" and separation. I do not believe Adam and Eve were created to live physically indefinitely.....as evidence I offer the narrative of the tree of life.
I had a teacher once that asked an interesting question on the subject. If Adam had accidentally stepped on a bug the day before the fall, would the bug have died? His point was that unless the fall caused major changes to physical bodies or greatly altered the way gravity works, then there was probably physical death in the garden all along. Just a thought.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Jeremy,
I am "with you" on that one. I too feel like death and entropy were original in the blueprints of creation. You are likely to get a good bit of "flak" here if you assume or maintain that or any similar position.
If you cannot kill a spirit so what died? Do you mean separation? Holy Spirit left his soul?
So you say separation...I'm not trying to play got ya BTW. My point is you can kill the body but can you kill the soul "rhetorical question"? Spiritual Death?
Boy, this thread can go so many different directions. If I were to delve into the Reformed doctrine of the Covenant of Works...
Had Adam not sinned then he would not have died. The Lord had to pronounce physical death on Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:19). Prior to that death was only a warning (Gen. 2:17).
As for the Tree of Life, I believe that the Lord restrained Adam and Eve from eating of it even before Adam sinned. While the text does not say that specifically, I think the narrative allows for inference.
Adam died spiritually. Before he sinned he did not possess a sin nature. Once he sinned he acquired a sin nature. James says that sin, once it is accomplished, brings forth death (Jas. 1:15). God had mercy on Adam and Eve by killing an animal to atone for their sins (Gen 3:21). Of course this atonement, like all OT blood atonement, was made perfect in Christ (Heb. 9:12, 13).
quantumfaith
Active Member
Well, with the greatest of respect, what we both have is "opinions" on the matter. I respect yours, but will stick with mine.
My guess is, correct me if I am wrong, you do not accept that death of any kind occurred prior to the fall.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Excellent answer quaff but a look at the Biblical evidence refutes your position.
Biblically the 'narrative' you refer to claims that they were not to partake of the Tree of Life AFTER they experienced spiritual death, not prior to, thus your claim to 'narrative support' that they were not created to live 'physically indefinitely' is a complete misnomer and is in fact Biblically inaccurate.
Note Genesis 3:22.
Perhaps you should adjust your 'I do not believe' to reflect actual Biblical revelation? :thumbs:
preacher4truth
Active Member
'Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching'. 1 Timothy 4:16.
This you've done and I pray you continue. As to others, this Scripture is optional, and they do then err.
I ask you to do nothing less. That is what debate and discussion is all about.
I do not believe there was death due to sin. For all I know an animal may have fallen off a cliff and died. I also reject any notion of a antideluvian society.
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First Adam and Eve were real and not an allegory for mankind. Second there was no death prior to their fall. Then they died spiritually (separation from God) immediately. They later died physically.
quantumfaith
Active Member
And the "implication" of that narrative is that the Tree of Life had some properties with regard to life and its longevity. So I don't think you "brushed aside" my perspective as efficiently as you suggest.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Correct. Scripture did that, not me.
I am not sure you fully understood his argument. Why would they need a tree of life if their was no death?
The tree of life is covenantal in nature. It points ultimately to Christ and the "healing of the nation's" in Revelation.