"So then all Israel shall be saved."
Look at the context. There is no possible way that can be referring to NT believers.
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The Wall That Jesus Christ Broke Down; Rebuilt?
- Thread starter OldRegular
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Look at the context. There is no possible way that can be referring to NT believers.
convicted1
Guest
Israel is a picture of the church in the OT. Not all of Israel is Israel. Yet, all of Israel, the church, the body of Christ, the sheep chosen from before the foundation of the world will be saved.......
And no, this isn't 'replacement theology', either. The church never replaced Israel, but is an extension of Israel....
And no, this isn't 'replacement theology', either. The church never replaced Israel, but is an extension of Israel....
convicted1
Guest
If all of literal Israel shall be saved, those who died never bowing to Him will be saved?? Hyper.....
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Good Question. Just who are ALL ISRAEL?
convicted1
Guest
The church, the ekklesia, the 'called out' ones...
convicted1
Guest
Romans 1:1-7
"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God --which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings --concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,
who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord; through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name; among whom are also ye, the called of Jesus Christ; to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ!"
The church is called out from amongst the world, both Jew and Gentile...they are beloved of God.
"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God --which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings --concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,
who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord; through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name; among whom are also ye, the called of Jesus Christ; to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ!"
The church is called out from amongst the world, both Jew and Gentile...they are beloved of God.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
I've got somewhere to be with my beautiful wife tonight, or I'd explain that in depth. Hang with me, I'll give you an answer tomorrow. :thumbsup:
convicted1
Guest
Take your time, my precious Brother. :thumbsup: As much as we're stewards of God, we are also husbands, and we are to love our wives in the same manner, even to die for them. (Eph. 5:25) :thumbsup:
You are so wrong here. The Apostle Paul disagrees with you. The Apostle John disagrees with. Let's consider Scripture.
John wrote the Book of Revelation to believers, NT believers.
Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
--These churches are mentioned in chapters 2 and 3; they have nothing to do with the OT.
Inasmuch as John wrote the book the letters are from Christ:
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
--It is the NT believer that has the privilege of coming before Christ as a priest. The OT believer never had that privilege. They had a Levitical priesthood, and had to go through their own priests. This is written to NT believers and describes our position before Christ.
Now in verse 7:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Who shall see him? Specifically "they also which pierced him,"...and shall wail because of him.
--John was expecting Christ to come in his day. He was expecting the nation of Israel (as a nation apart from NT believers) to be saved in his day.
The last prayer and the last promise of the Bible:
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
--Jesus had promised to come.
John prayed that he would come quickly. He expected his coming in his lifetime. He also expected Israel, as a separate nation to be saved in his lifetime.
To believe that the NT "church" is an extension of Israel is a novel idea not taught in the Scriptures. This would not be in John's thinking. In fact he would not even consider a universal church in the sense you use it. The only concept of church he had was "local church" as is mentioned in chapters 2 and 3. There were seven of them. They were assemblies, the only kind of church known to John.
What about Paul:
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Paul delineates three groups of individuals that co-existed side by side during his lifetime well after the resurrection of Christ.
--The Jews (Israel), the Gentiles, and the church of God.
The church obviously was not an extension of Israel. It existed alongside it. Both were a separate entity.
There were unsaved Gentiles and unsaved Jews. The unsaved Jews remained Israel.
An unsaved Ethiopian remained an unsaved Ethiopian, and when he got saved he became a saved Ethiopian. So it was with the Jews. When Paul got saved he became a Christian but he did not lose his ethnicity. He was still proud of his heritage. But now he was a Christian and no longer under the law. He no longer kept the faith of the Jews, though he was a Jew by heritage.
Look at Paul's writings:
Romans 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--According to Paul the Israelites definitely existed, and Paul would have given his life for theirs. He earnestly desired for them to be saved.
Israel still exists. Nothing has changed since Paul's time.
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
--The same plea is reiterated again here.
His heart's desire is that the nation of Israel be saved.
Today Israel exists as a nation, as they did in Paul's day. We ought to be praying that they come to Christ. Some day they will. But those who die before that time will go to hell if they don't get saved. Paul knew of this great truth.
dhk
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Apostle John had much to say about the Old Testament Saints and Jesus Christ:
John 8:51-59
51. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55. Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Notice in verse 56 what Jesus Christ said about Abraham: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Now the dispensationalist can moan and whine that the Church was not known in the Old testament but they are wrong! The Apostle Paul tells us: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. {Galatians 3:8}
And what did the Jews want to do to Jesus Christ? Verse 59 tells us: Then took they up stones to cast at him: In time the conspired with Rome to crucify Him, Jesus Christ our savior, screaming: Crucify him, crucify him.
In that great Chapter11 of Hebrews which tells us something of those in the Old Testament who were justified because of their faith God through the Apostle Paul tells us the following: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. {Hebrews 11:39, 40}
I read this as God telling us they the Old Testament Saints could not be made perfect without the New Testament Saints. John Gill says of this statement:
I believe John Gill is correct. His exegesis is consistent with John 8:56 above. I believe the Southern Baptist Convention got it right in 2000 AD!
The Dispensationalists are simply wrong, sadly in just about everything they teach regarding the Church and eschatology!
John 8:51-59
51. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55. Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Notice in verse 56 what Jesus Christ said about Abraham: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Now the dispensationalist can moan and whine that the Church was not known in the Old testament but they are wrong! The Apostle Paul tells us: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. {Galatians 3:8}
And what did the Jews want to do to Jesus Christ? Verse 59 tells us: Then took they up stones to cast at him: In time the conspired with Rome to crucify Him, Jesus Christ our savior, screaming: Crucify him, crucify him.
In that great Chapter11 of Hebrews which tells us something of those in the Old Testament who were justified because of their faith God through the Apostle Paul tells us the following: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. {Hebrews 11:39, 40}
I read this as God telling us they the Old Testament Saints could not be made perfect without the New Testament Saints. John Gill says of this statement:
I believe John Gill is correct. His exegesis is consistent with John 8:56 above. I believe the Southern Baptist Convention got it right in 2000 AD!
The Dispensationalists are simply wrong, sadly in just about everything they teach regarding the Church and eschatology!
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beameup
Member
Replacement Theology takes the Old Testament verses/passages that say "Israel" and insert "The Church".
They do this on verses/passages that have a good connotation or blessing, but when it comes to the negative verses/passages, they leave it "the Jews".
Selective "editing" of the meaning of the text was a 4th Century Catholic "concoction" that, it seems, even many Baptists have now "embraced".
They do this on verses/passages that have a good connotation or blessing, but when it comes to the negative verses/passages, they leave it "the Jews".
Selective "editing" of the meaning of the text was a 4th Century Catholic "concoction" that, it seems, even many Baptists have now "embraced".
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are like Y1, you never post any Scripture. I bet someone would give you a Bible even if you only read Paul's prison Epistles.
You do spell much better than Y1 and that is a fact!
convicted1
Guest
A-MEN!!!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
In case you missed it the Deliverer, Jesus Christ, came out of zion 2000 years ago!
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
And well after the resurrection Paul wrote those verses in the future tense!
beameup
Member
As concerning the Gospel, they [the Jews, ie: Jacob-Israel] are enemies for your sakes [ie: the Church, the Body of Christ]:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes [ie: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc]. Romans 11:27
And so, "the Jews" (ie: Jacob, Israel) remain enemies of the Gospel to this very day. However, in the future they will be saved "for the sake of the Fathers".
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes [ie: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc]. Romans 11:27
And so, "the Jews" (ie: Jacob, Israel) remain enemies of the Gospel to this very day. However, in the future they will be saved "for the sake of the Fathers".
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Apostle is simply showing the fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 59:20, And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Unless the Bible is mistaken, and it is not, the Redeemer, Jesus Christ, was crucified ~2000 years ago!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The non Elect among the Jews are still opposed to their Messiah but the Elect are being saved according to God's purpose. I have wonderful memories of a young Jewish girl, the friend and in time the wife of a nephew. She routinely attended our family reunions for several years before they were married. Those family reunions were always a time of sharing the Grace of God. I recall that day when she called an elder brother aside and confessed her faith to him to be made known to the family. So you see Jews are still being saved "for the sake of the fathers" and according to God's Election.
She gave birth to three sons before being stricken with melanoma. Her faith was as strong as I have seen. She fought the good fight for almost ten years before God took her to be with Him. Her request to her pastor was that he preach the Gospel to her family as a funeral sermon. All praise to my God and Savior for He is a God of Grace!
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