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Featured Free will makes God appear impotent.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by convicted1, Aug 9, 2014.

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  1. old regular

    old regular Active Member

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    Our Hope arises from the freeness of Grace, not the freedom of man's will!!!!
     
    #41 old regular, Aug 10, 2014
  2. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Amen Brother Mike, amen!!


    I am still planning on being at Mt. Moriah in september, if you're there and good Lord willing....
     
    #42 convicted1, Aug 10, 2014
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    In John 6, Jesus plainly stated,


    "And Jesus said to them, `I am the bread of the life; he who is coming unto me may not hunger, and he who is believing in me may not thirst -- at any time; but I said to you, that ye also have seen me, and ye believe not; all that the Father doth give to me will come unto me; and him who is coming unto me, I may in no wise cast without, because I have come down out of the heaven, not that I may do my will, but the will of Him who sent me. `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day; and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.' The Jews, therefore, were murmuring at him, because he said, `I am the bread that came down out of the heaven;' and they said, `Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we have known? how then saith this one -- Out of the heaven I have come down?' Jesus answered, therefore, and said to them, `Murmur not one with another; no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day; it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;"     (YLT...vss 35-45)


    In vs 37, Jesus stated that all the Father gave Him WILL come...not come if they choose to, or come when they want to, &c. When He beckons them, they WILL come. He then went on to say that no one is able....you know, have the ability...to come unto Him unless He first draws them. That sure break free will into itty bitty pieces....


    Now, let's back up a few verses and read what Jesus had already told them.....


    "They said therefore unto him, `What may we do that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.' They said therefore to him, `What sign, then, dost thou, that we may see and may believe thee? what dost thou work?" (YLT...vss 28-30)

    The work of God is to cause us to become believers, to have faith in Him....


    but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name, who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten.

    Romans 9:16 so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:


    2 Thess. 2:13 And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,
     (John 1:12-13 YLT)


    All of these show that salvation starts and ends with God...
     
    #43 convicted1, Aug 10, 2014
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  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Brother, you need to post on this genre more often. I appreciate the interaction. We may be -- and forgive me if I place ourselves in the category of these men -- a Wesley and a Whitfield respectively, but your posts are thoughtful and lacking causticity.
     
    #44 Reformed, Aug 10, 2014
  5. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    :applause::applause::applause::applause:
     
    #45 convicted1, Aug 10, 2014
  6. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Brother Rob, Wes' problem stems from not holding to the "Federal Headship" theology. All that are born naturally into this world, Adam is their fountainhead. All who are born Spiritually, Jesus Christ, the last Adam, is their Fountainhead. It's just that simple.....



    Here comes Wes' "nun uh" in 5, 4, 3.......
     
    #46 convicted1, Aug 10, 2014
  7. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Fountainhead? I never quite heard it put that way.

    As you said when you referenced 'Federal Headship', Adam acted as our federal head. The form of the word 'federal' in this sense is archaic in nature. It pertains to a compact or treaty. When Adam sinned he did so as our fair and just representative. He acted as mankind's representative, and his action had binding consequence on his posterity.

    It works the same way in representative governments. In the United States political system the electorate votes representatives and senators to Congress. These elected officials vote to pass laws. These laws are binding on citizens of the country even if the citizens disagree with the law. Adam did the exact same thing to us. Although we did not vote for Adam (he was created by God), Adam was our lawful representative before God.
     
    #47 Reformed, Aug 10, 2014
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  8. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Maybe fountainhead wasn't an ideal choice, but it's late at night for me, so cut a Brother a break...:laugh:

    Very solid post, Brother Herald, but the philosphy barbs will start in 5, 4, 3.....
     
    #48 convicted1, Aug 10, 2014
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Oh, you better believe it. A. H. Strong, a famous Calvinist objected to this theory;

    http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs03.htm

    As A. H. Strong wrote, we did not "vote" for Adam to be our federal head as we vote for our President or members of Congress to represent us.

    There is not one word in the Bible that supports that Adam was our federal head.

    But worst of all, this theory makes God unjust and the author of sin.

    Nice theory Willis.

    No, the Bible says that the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, or vice versa, but every man shall die for his own sin.

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Unbelievable, you believe an horrible "theory" that makes God the author of sin and is not found anywhere in the Bible, and completely reject the direct word of God.
     
    #49 Winman, Aug 10, 2014
  10. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    So....you take A.H. Strong's words for the gospel, a Calvinist, but when other Calvinists' disagree with you, they're wrong...



    The very example of cherry pickin'.....
     
    #50 convicted1, Aug 10, 2014
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Unbelievable. The people did not ask Jesus what God's work is, they asked Jesus what work THEY must do to do the works of God.

    Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    And Jesus directly answered them and told them the work of God is to believe on him. He was telling these people this is what God wanted THEM to do.

    They were not asking what work God does, and Jesus was not telling them that God caused them to believe.

    You are outright butchering the scriptures now.
     
    #51 Winman, Aug 10, 2014
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  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Even Calvinists are right on occasion, or rather RARE occasion.

    Willis, you USED to know that Original Sin was wrong for the same reasons that A.H. Strong objected to here. It has God holding men accountable for an agreement they never made.

    Look, I didn't vote for Obama, but when I participated in our election process, I agreed to support whoever won. So, by participating in the election I chose Barack Obama to be my President.

    But I never voted for Adam, and neither did you. And if you asked me if I want him to be my representative, I would say no.

    Now Jesus is another story, I voted for him, I chose him to be my representative on the cross and die for me.

    No, I represented myself when I chose to knowingly and willfully sin. I became a sinner by my own choice.

    But beside the fact that I NEVER agreed for Adam to be my representative in the garden, this theory is horrible because it makes God the AUTHOR of sin.

    If you want to believe that, that is your choice, but I sure wouldn't want to stand before God and explain this theory to him.
     
    #52 Winman, Aug 10, 2014
  13. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I am Extremely grateful that God has provided the grace for me to be a synergist.
     
    #53 quantumfaith, Aug 10, 2014
  14. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    You are one of the most graceful posters on here, Brother Dave. I truly mean that. You can hold your own, but you do it without ad hominems. I truly respect you, and I pray you take no offense towards me. I love you....


    :thumbs::jesus::godisgood::wavey:
     
    #54 convicted1, Aug 10, 2014
  15. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Unless you put you hand out to shake hands with God and say "put'r there", then God can't...not won't...can't save you is horrible doctrine....
     
    #55 convicted1, Aug 10, 2014
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    And 'Bingo ' was his name oh.....:laugh:
     
    #56 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 10, 2014
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Dave is a sincerely good guy.....glad you noticed!
     
    #57 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 10, 2014
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Thats because he looks at it from both sides.:godisgood:
     
    #58 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 10, 2014
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You do believe that man has to at least listen to the gospel to be saved don't you? Or is the man listening saving himself?

    You are getting so extreme, pretty soon you will object if the man is even present when he gets saved. :rolleyes:
     
    #59 Winman, Aug 10, 2014
  20. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Once...if ever...you figure out God's sovereignity and man's responsibilty, you'll figure this out. Until then, you'll remain in the gross errors you're mired in....
     
    #60 convicted1, Aug 10, 2014
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