Free will makes God appear impotent.

[convicted1]

Wow. I see the arrogance and nastiness of Calvinism has rubbed off on you.

Not being arrogant or nasty whatsoever...just stating the truth...truth is never arrogant...nasty? Yes. The truth hurts...cuts deep...

 

[steaver]

Not being arrogant or nasty whatsoever...just stating the truth...truth is never arrogant...nasty? Yes. The truth hurts...cuts deep...

And that goes both ways, correct? Do you see that Adam having freewill did not usurp God's sovereignty?

 

[convicted1]

All great stuff brother,

:thumbsup:

but let's take this one step at a time. Dis Adam have a freewill? Did this usurp God's sovereignty?

Freewill? Yes. Usurp His authority? No. But that doesn't strengthen you case whatsoever. After Adam sinned, he fled from God. He wanted nothing to do with Him. He hid, and so did Eve.

 

[steaver]

:thumbsup:
Freewill? Yes. Usurp His authority? No. But that doesn't strengthen you case whatsoever. After Adam sinned, he fled from God. He wanted nothing to do with Him. He hid, and so did Eve.

It absolutely MAKES my case. All Calvinist became Calvinist BASED upon the sovereignty of God, this is their foundation for accepting all of the TULIP demands. Every Calvinist will begin with "God is Sovereign" when they start their arguments.

 

[convicted1]

It absolutely MAKES my case. All Calvinist became Calvinist BASED upon the sovereignty of God, this is their foundation for accepting all of the TULIP demands. Every Calvinist will begin with "God is Sovereign" when they start their arguments.

Where was Adam's freewill to come to God? He ran like a scared rabbit....

 

[steaver]

I challenge you! You take away your belief that freewill usurps God's sovereignty (and you have admitted it does not) and then see if TULIP stands for you.

 

[steaver]

Where was Adam's freewill to come to God? He ran like a scared rabbit....

You are allowed to argue that there is no freewill allowed post fall, just don't claim it because of God's sovereignty and see how TULIP stands up then.

 

[convicted1]

You are allowed to argue that there is no freewill allowed post fall, just don't claim it because of God's sovereignty and see how TULIP stands up then.

Are you going to answer my question or deflect?

Where was Adam's freewill when God came to him?

 

[steaver]

Are you going to answer my question or deflect?

Where was Adam's freewill when God came to him?

Deflect what? Adam had freewill before he sinned, this you agree with. So I say it was still there after he sinned, you say it wasn't. We both know it was there, so it is up to you to prove it was gone. Hiding from God does not say anything about freewill, it only shows a disconnect from holiness.

 

[convicted1]

Deflect what? Adam had freewill before he sinned, this you agree with. So I say it was still there after he sinned, you say it wasn't. We both know it was there, so it is up to you to prove it was gone. Hiding from God does not say anything about freewill, it only shows a disconnect from holiness.

Adam was born upright, was perfect, complete, holy. None of us possess these attributes now. The only way we attain these attributes is via Christ's atonement via the cross. Adam forfeited all those for himself, and all his posterity. The first Adam is of the earth, is earthly; the Last Adam, Jesus Christ, is quickening Spirit.

Free mean no restrictions. We can do anything, being free. If we are free in that manner, then we could have approached God w/o any unctioning of the Spirit.

That's why Jesus said no man can come unto Me, except My Father which sent Me, draws him. We aren't free to approach God unless He first beckons us.

Again, where was Adam's freewill when he fled fro God calling out to him?

 

[convicted1]

The truth shall make you free....

I AM the truth....

Both are biblical truths....

 

[steaver]

Adam was born upright, was perfect, complete, holy. None of us possess these attributes now. The only way we attain these attributes is via Christ's atonement via the cross. Adam forfeited all those for himself, and all his posterity. The first Adam is of the earth, is earthly; the Last Adam, Jesus Christ, is quickening Spirit.

Free mean no restrictions. We can do anything, being free. If we are free in that manner, then we could have approached God w/o any unctioning of the Spirit.

That's why Jesus said no man can come unto Me, except My Father which sent Me, draws him. We aren't free to approach God unless He first beckons us.

Again, where was Adam's freewill when he fled fro God calling out to him?

Ok, this is a good start. We can debate whether or not man has a freewill post fall, just as long as there is no premise that it is because freewill goes against God's sovereignty.

Adam was born upright, was perfect, complete, holy. None of us possess these attributes now. The only way we attain these attributes is via Christ's atonement via the cross. Adam forfeited all those for himself, and all his posterity. The first Adam is of the earth, is earthly; the Last Adam, Jesus Christ, is quickening Spirit.

Ok, just so we move forward understanding the same, what does this conclude then? Is freewill restored in Christ? And if not, then being in Christ does not return us to the state of Adam pre-fall, correct?

 

[convicted1]

Ok, this is a good start. We can debate whether or not man has a freewill post fall, just as long as there is no premise that it is because freewill goes against God's sovereignty.



Ok, just so we move forward understanding the same, what does this conclude then? Is freewill restored in Christ? And if not, then being in Christ does not return us to the state of Adam pre-fall, correct?

I see it that the will and nature are intertwined. We, as sinners, have a fallen will. We acted in the bounds of that nature freely. We did as Adam did, fled from God. In His time, He quickened us, changed our nature, and conversely our will. Now that we have a new will, it is "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." Change the nature, change the will.

 

[convicted1]

What I'm driving at, Brother Steaver, is that no amount of witnessing, no amount of testifying, no amount of preaching makes a sinner desire God unless He first draws them. When God changes their "want to", they will seek for Him. If they were truly free, free has no restraints, then how is it necessary to be first drawn? That's not freedom, that's not free will in the least, imo...

 

[steaver]

I see it that the will and nature are intertwined. We, as sinners, have a fallen will. We acted in the bounds of that nature freely. We did as Adam did, fled from God. In His time, He quickened us, changed our nature, and conversely our will. Now that we have a new will, it is "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." Change the nature, change the will.

Maybe in part, but we see our will divided oftentimes don't we, even as Christians, we do not always do God's will, we freely choose to disobey many times, even by the sin nature that still reigns in our flesh. Is this not freewill?

 

[steaver]

What I'm driving at, Brother Steaver, is that no amount of witnessing, no amount of testifying, no amount of preaching makes a sinner desire God unless He first draws them. When God changes their "want to", they will seek for Him. If they were truly free, free has no restraints, then how is it necessary to be first drawn. That's not freedom, that's not free will in the least, imo...

But freewill is having the freedom to make choices. If there are no choices, then there is no freewill necessary. And I'm sorry, but to say man has a choice but man has no choice but to always choose one way, that is not a choice and imo is a silly argument.

 

[steaver]

Hey, good chatting with you brother. I have to get to bed for now. :wavey:

 

[convicted1]

But freewill is having the freedom to make choices. If there are no choices, then there is no freewill necessary. And I'm sorry, but to say man has a choice but man has no choice but to always choose one way, that is not a choice and imo is a silly argument.

This is where understanding regeneration being the starting point and not the finish line is important. The will to choose God, from our part, is after regeneration has taken place. We then freely choose Him, because He has given us the ability to do so.

Good night dear Brother. :sleep:

I am flattered you used me in your signature. :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is where understanding regeneration being the starting point and not the finish line is important. The will to choose God, from our part, is after regeneration has taken place. We then freely choose Him, because He has given us the ability to do so.

Good night dear Brother. :sleep:

I am flattered you used me in your signature. :laugh:

And there you have it folks:thumbs:

 

[steaver]

The will to choose God, from our part, is after regeneration has taken place. We then freely choose Him, because He has given us the ability to do so.

And this is indeed the sticking point between Cals and Non-Cals. Imo this must be presumed by the Calvinist, for I don't see this laid out in the Scriptures. What I see is God over and over giving the people space/grace to repent. I see God convicting people of their sins, I see God drawing people to believe and repent. I do not see anywhere in the Scripture saying Adam lost his freewill to make positive choices towards God. You agree freewill was created in Adam, imo you cannot prove freewill was lost at the fall.

I am flattered you used me in your signature. :laugh:

Please consider those thoughts Calvinism has led you to embrace. If they were true, would Jesus Christ Himself not have spoken it in the Gospels? God is Love we read from the Scriptures, making just judgments is not Hate.