1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Free will makes God appear impotent.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by convicted1, Aug 9, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 5 of 17
  1. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    Not being arrogant or nasty whatsoever...just stating the truth...truth is never arrogant...nasty? Yes. The truth hurts...cuts deep...
     
    #81 convicted1, Aug 11, 2014
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    And that goes both ways, correct? Do you see that Adam having freewill did not usurp God's sovereignty?
     
    #82 steaver, Aug 11, 2014
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    :thumbsup:



    Freewill? Yes. Usurp His authority? No. But that doesn't strengthen you case whatsoever. After Adam sinned, he fled from God. He wanted nothing to do with Him. He hid, and so did Eve.
     
    #83 convicted1, Aug 11, 2014
  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    It absolutely MAKES my case. All Calvinist became Calvinist BASED upon the sovereignty of God, this is their foundation for accepting all of the TULIP demands. Every Calvinist will begin with "God is Sovereign" when they start their arguments.
     
    #84 steaver, Aug 11, 2014
  5. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    Where was Adam's freewill to come to God? He ran like a scared rabbit....
     
    #85 convicted1, Aug 11, 2014
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I challenge you! You take away your belief that freewill usurps God's sovereignty (and you have admitted it does not) and then see if TULIP stands for you.
     
    #86 steaver, Aug 11, 2014
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    You are allowed to argue that there is no freewill allowed post fall, just don't claim it because of God's sovereignty and see how TULIP stands up then.
     
    #87 steaver, Aug 11, 2014
  8. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    Are you going to answer my question or deflect?

    Where was Adam's freewill when God came to him?
     
    #88 convicted1, Aug 11, 2014
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Deflect what? Adam had freewill before he sinned, this you agree with. So I say it was still there after he sinned, you say it wasn't. We both know it was there, so it is up to you to prove it was gone. Hiding from God does not say anything about freewill, it only shows a disconnect from holiness.
     
    #89 steaver, Aug 11, 2014
  10. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    Adam was born upright, was perfect, complete, holy. None of us possess these attributes now. The only way we attain these attributes is via Christ's atonement via the cross. Adam forfeited all those for himself, and all his posterity. The first Adam is of the earth, is earthly; the Last Adam, Jesus Christ, is quickening Spirit.

    Free mean no restrictions. We can do anything, being free. If we are free in that manner, then we could have approached God w/o any unctioning of the Spirit.

    That's why Jesus said no man can come unto Me, except My Father which sent Me, draws him. We aren't free to approach God unless He first beckons us.

    Again, where was Adam's freewill when he fled fro God calling out to him?
     
    #90 convicted1, Aug 11, 2014
  11. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    The truth shall make you free....

    I AM the truth....

    Both are biblical truths....
     
    #91 convicted1, Aug 11, 2014
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Ok, this is a good start. We can debate whether or not man has a freewill post fall, just as long as there is no premise that it is because freewill goes against God's sovereignty.

    Ok, just so we move forward understanding the same, what does this conclude then? Is freewill restored in Christ? And if not, then being in Christ does not return us to the state of Adam pre-fall, correct?
     
    #92 steaver, Aug 11, 2014
  13. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    I see it that the will and nature are intertwined. We, as sinners, have a fallen will. We acted in the bounds of that nature freely. We did as Adam did, fled from God. In His time, He quickened us, changed our nature, and conversely our will. Now that we have a new will, it is "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." Change the nature, change the will.
     
    #93 convicted1, Aug 11, 2014
  14. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    What I'm driving at, Brother Steaver, is that no amount of witnessing, no amount of testifying, no amount of preaching makes a sinner desire God unless He first draws them. When God changes their "want to", they will seek for Him. If they were truly free, free has no restraints, then how is it necessary to be first drawn? That's not freedom, that's not free will in the least, imo...
     
    #94 convicted1, Aug 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2014
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Maybe in part, but we see our will divided oftentimes don't we, even as Christians, we do not always do God's will, we freely choose to disobey many times, even by the sin nature that still reigns in our flesh. Is this not freewill?
     
    #95 steaver, Aug 11, 2014
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    But freewill is having the freedom to make choices. If there are no choices, then there is no freewill necessary. And I'm sorry, but to say man has a choice but man has no choice but to always choose one way, that is not a choice and imo is a silly argument.
     
    #96 steaver, Aug 11, 2014
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Hey, good chatting with you brother. I have to get to bed for now. :wavey:
     
    #97 steaver, Aug 11, 2014
  18. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    This is where understanding regeneration being the starting point and not the finish line is important. The will to choose God, from our part, is after regeneration has taken place. We then freely choose Him, because He has given us the ability to do so.

    Good night dear Brother. :sleep:

    I am flattered you used me in your signature. :laugh:
     
    #98 convicted1, Aug 11, 2014
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,927
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And there you have it folks:thumbs:
     
    #99 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 12, 2014
  20. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    And this is indeed the sticking point between Cals and Non-Cals. Imo this must be presumed by the Calvinist, for I don't see this laid out in the Scriptures. What I see is God over and over giving the people space/grace to repent. I see God convicting people of their sins, I see God drawing people to believe and repent. I do not see anywhere in the Scripture saying Adam lost his freewill to make positive choices towards God. You agree freewill was created in Adam, imo you cannot prove freewill was lost at the fall.

    Please consider those thoughts Calvinism has led you to embrace. If they were true, would Jesus Christ Himself not have spoken it in the Gospels? God is Love we read from the Scriptures, making just judgments is not Hate.
     
    #100 steaver, Aug 12, 2014
Page 5 of 17
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...