Free will makes God appear impotent.

[convicted1]

Again then answer me this...what about those who died in the mid-centuries who died never hearing of Jesus Christ? You'll appeal to mystery, just like the claim slammed on us. I have you cornered with this, and you know it.


If they died never hearing of Christ, unless you hold to mysticism, they couldn't have been saved.

 

[convicted1]

No man could come to Jesus unless God the Father had revealed him unto us. That is what the next verse says.

RIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPP!!<--------THE SOUND OF THE CONTEXT.....




No man can come unless My Father which sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. No one can come unless drawn. That's not a free will, not on iota of freedom.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jhn 6:45 explains verse 44. Does it say a man has to be regenerated to be drawn to Jesus? No, it says they have to be TAUGHT. What men lack that prevents them from coming to Jesus is KNOWLEDGE. That is why Jesus commanded us to go out and TEACH all nations.

RIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPP<-------THE SOUND OF THE CONTEXT AGAIN.....

Why did some know who He was and some didn't? What did Jesus tell the Pharisees in John 8? They were not of His sheep and His word had no place in them. Not because they desired to commune with Him, but solely because they were not of His sheep.They all shall be taught is in reference to His sheep, and not goats. Jesus is a Shepherd of His sheep and is not a goat herder.....

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

We, the church, are commanded to preach the word to every creature is correct. We don't know who His sheep are, but He does. We make the gospel call to all, knowing the sheep, in His time, will hear and come and be gathered into the sheepfold, which has one Shepherd, Jesus Christ.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Again, what about those dying in the mid-centuries never hearing of His prescious name? They can't believe in Jesus if they never heard of Him, now can they? If they never heard of Him and none can be saved outside of believing in Christ, what happened to them? ***jeopardy theme music***-

Nowhere do the scriptures ever say a man must be regenerated before he can come to Jesus and believe on him. What the scriptures do say and teach is that a man must be TAUGHT to have the ability to come and believed in Jesus. No man can possibly believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him.

Oh, I think you're so far out in left field, you haven't even pulled into the parking lot yet. John 1:13, John 3:3, John 5:29, Romans 9:16, 1 Thess. 2:13, just to name a few. In your obstinance, you fail to see them as they are..biblical truths.

Calvinists choose to completely ignore the many scriptures that teach this.

You really need to look in the mirror to see who is ignoring the scriptures to fit their pet doctrine(s). You've been shown your gross errors by Brothers Benjamin, Skan, DHK, and those are of your own side of the debate.

Jesus is not addressing man's will. He is addressing man's knowledge. You are twisting the scriptures to say something that is not being said. The very next verse says only those persons who have heard and learned from the Father, those men who have been taught can come to Jesus.

So, you are just butchering the scriptures with a false interpretation.

OMG. You look at the scriptures like you're eating a pretzel whilst playing the game "Twister".

You are really butchering the scriptures here. The Jews had just asked Jesus what works THEY might do to do the works of God. Jesus gave them a direct answer, the work of God is to believe on him. Jesus is telling these persons that if they want to please God and do those works that please him, then believe on him.

Jesus is not saying that God implants faith in men as you are falsely trying to say.



Albert Barnes was a Calvinist, but he knew what Jesus was saying here, he was telling these persons they must believe on Jesus to be saved.

So, you are truly butchering the interpretation of scriptures with both John 6:44 and John 6:29.

It amazes me that you quote a calvinist when he agrees with you. I am utterly shocked you'd even want to read their vile writings.

 

[convicted1]

RIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPP!!<--------THE SOUND OF THE CONTEXT.....




No man can come unless My Father which sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. No one can come unless drawn. That's not a free will, not on iota of freedom.







RIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPP<-------THE SOUND OF THE CONTEXT AGAIN.....

Why did some know who He was and some didn't? What did Jesus tell the Pharisees in John 8? They were not of His sheep and His word had no place in them. Not because they desired to commune with Him, but solely because they were not of His sheep.They all shall be taught is in reference to His sheep, and not goats. Jesus is a Shepherd of His sheep and is not a goat herder.....





We, the church, are commanded to preach the word to every creature is correct. We don't know who His sheep are, but He does. We make the gospel call to all, knowing the sheep, in His time, will hear and come and be gathered into the sheepfold, which has one Shepherd, Jesus Christ.




Again, what about those dying in the mid-centuries never hearing of His prescious name? They can't believe in Jesus if they never heard of Him, now can they? If they never heard of Him and none can be saved outside of believing in Christ, what happened to them? ***jeopardy theme music***-






Oh, I think you're so far out in left field, you haven't even pulled into the parking lot yet. John 1:13, John 3:3, John 5:29, Romans 9:16, 1 Thess. 2:13, just to name a few. In your obstinance, you fail to see them as they are..biblical truths.



You really need to look in the mirror to see who is ignoring the scriptures to fit their pet doctrine(s). You've been shown your gross errors by Brothers Benjamin, Skan, DHK, and those are of your own side of the debate.







OMG. You look at the scriptures like you're eating a pretzel whilst playing the game "Twister".







It amazes me that you quote a calvinist when he agrees with you. I am utterly shocked you'd even want to read their vile writings.

<-----added this...

 

[Winman]

RIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPP!!<--------THE SOUND OF THE CONTEXT.....

No man can come unless My Father which sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. No one can come unless drawn. That's not a free will, not on iota of freedom.

RIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPP<-------THE SOUND OF THE CONTEXT AGAIN.....

Why did some know who He was and some didn't? What did Jesus tell the Pharisees in John 8? They were not of His sheep and His word had no place in them. Not because they desired to commune with Him, but solely because they were not of His sheep.They all shall be taught is in reference to His sheep, and not goats. Jesus is a Shepherd of His sheep and is not a goat herder.....

We, the church, are commanded to preach the word to every creature is correct. We don't know who His sheep are, but He does. We make the gospel call to all, knowing the sheep, in His time, will hear and come and be gathered into the sheepfold, which has one Shepherd, Jesus Christ.

Again, what about those dying in the mid-centuries never hearing of His prescious name? They can't believe in Jesus if they never heard of Him, now can they? If they never heard of Him and none can be saved outside of believing in Christ, what happened to them? ***jeopardy theme music***-

Oh, I think you're so far out in left field, you haven't even pulled into the parking lot yet. John 1:13, John 3:3, John 5:29, Romans 9:16, 1 Thess. 2:13, just to name a few. In your obstinance, you fail to see them as they are..biblical truths.

You really need to look in the mirror to see who is ignoring the scriptures to fit their pet doctrine(s). You've been shown your gross errors by Brothers Benjamin, Skan, DHK, and those are of your own side of the debate.


OMG. You look at the scriptures like you're eating a pretzel whilst playing the game "Twister".


It amazes me that you quote a calvinist when he agrees with you. I am utterly shocked you'd even want to read their vile writings.

Albert Barnes was an honest man, and this caused him lots of problems among the Calvinists. But for the most part, he interpreted scripture honestly.

And he agrees with my interpretation of John 6:45, it is explaining how men are drawn to Jesus in verse 44, by being TAUGHT of God, not being regenerated as you falsely teach. The scriptures NEVER say that, and I think you know that.

In the prophets - Isaiah 54:13. A similar sentiment is found in Micah 4:1-4, and Jeremiah 31:34; but by the prophets, here, is meant the book of the prophets, and it is probable that Jesus had reference only to the place in Isaiah, as this was the usual way of quoting the prophets.

Shall be all taught of God - This explains the preceding verse. It is by the teaching of his Word and Spirit that men are drawn to God. This shows that it is not compulsory, and that there is no obstacle in the way but a strong voluntary ignorance and unwillingness

You cannot simply go through scripture and put your Calvinist "spin" on it Willis, but that is what you are trying to do.

I seriously doubt any thinking person would be fooled with your eisegesis.

 

[convicted1]

Albert Barnes was an honest man, and this caused him lots of problems among the Calvinists. But for the most part, he interpreted scripture honestly.

And he agrees with my interpretation of John 6:45, it is explaining how men are drawn to Jesus in verse 44, by being TAUGHT of God, not being regenerated as you falsely teach. The scriptures NEVER say that, and I think you know that.



And boy was Barnes right about those with a strong voluntary ignorance.

You cannot simply go through scripture and put your Calvinist "spin" on it Willis, but that is what you are trying to do.

I seriously doubt any thinking person would be fooled with your eisegesis.

Whatever helps you sleep at night....


You have been shown your errors time after time, by BOTH sides of the debate, and you just go right along with your nose up in the air, knowing more than all of us combined.

 

[convicted1]

Again then answer me this...what about those who died in the mid-centuries who died never hearing of Jesus Christ? You'll appeal to mystery, just like the claim slammed on us. I have you cornered with this, and you know it.


If they died never hearing of Christ, unless you hold to mysticism, they couldn't have been saved.

Now, do you want to answer these questions for me?

 

[Winman]

Whatever helps you sleep at night....


You have been shown your errors time after time, by BOTH sides of the debate, and you just go right along with your nose up in the air, knowing more than all of us combined.

Look Willis, Albert Barnes died over 80 years before I was born. He didn't interpret scripture to agree with me, he interpreted scripture for what it ACTUALLY said.

It is you that is putting a Calvinist spin on scripture, not me.

And I think you know that. If not, you are the only one who does not know it.

 

[convicted1]

Look Willis, Albert Barnes died over 80 years before I was born. He didn't interpret scripture to agree with me, he interpreted scripture for what it ACTUALLY said.

It is you that is putting a Calvinist spin on scripture, not me.

And I think you know that. If not, you are the only one who does not know it.

Yes, but he's the only one you'd quote. You wouldn't quote Calvin, Pink, Beza, et al....I think you quoted CHS a time or two...


I am not putting a calvinist spin on the scriptures....

 

[convicted1]

Again then answer me this...what about those who died in the mid-centuries who died never hearing of Jesus Christ? You'll appeal to mystery, just like the claim slammed on us. I have you cornered with this, and you know it.


If they died never hearing of Christ, unless you hold to mysticism, they couldn't have been saved.

Now again, will you PLEASE answer this post for me?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You made your point Willis....now roll it up.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[convicted1]

You made your point Willis....now roll it up.:smilewinkgrin:

He won't answer that last request, Brother Steve. I wonder why?


He knows the answer thwarts everything and undermines his theology...

 

[Inspector Javert]

He knows the answer thwarts everything and undermines his theology

How so?
Can you elaborate?

 

[RLBosley]

Winman, winman, winman... *sigh*

No man could come to Jesus unless God the Father had revealed him unto us.

While convicted1 hears the ripping of the context, I hear whimpering and agony... it's the sound of you torturing the text.

That is what the next verse says.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jhn 6:45 explains verse 44. Does it say a man has to be regenerated to be drawn to Jesus? No, it says they have to be TAUGHT. What men lack that prevents them from coming to Jesus is KNOWLEDGE.

You continue to repeat this error. You think that man is only lacking knowledge. If only man acquired enough information he could be saved! I said it before, but that sounds like gnosticism to me. But that is not, at all, what this text teaches.

Pay attention:

Who is being taught in verse 45?

Jhn 6:45 NASB - "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

Those that come to the Son correct? Those are the ones being taught.

Hearing, learning and coming are all related in this text. That is the first major problem with your idea that knowledge is all we need. There are many who know A LOT about Jesus, and yet do not come. They refuse to come. If you were right, then every student in every Sunday School class would be a believer, and none would fall away. However Jesus says that EVERYONE who has heard and learned comes to him. Every single one. There is not one who hears that does not come. So we know right away that Jesus is not speaking about simple education or evangelism.


Now, who is doing the teaching? You propose that it is the church:

That is why Jesus commanded us to go out and TEACH all nations.

But you ignore Jesus' own words:

Jhn 6:45 NASB - "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

The NASB uses all caps to indicate OT quotations, here it also takes your attention to what you repeatedly ignore in this text. According to Jesus, who is the one giving this education?

God himself.

Not the church.

Pay attention to what he actually says,"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.'"

Not taught about God as you try to mangle it to say, but taught "OF God" or "BY God" (NKJV, NLT, NIV,ESV, HCSB etc.).

Specifically, Jesus says they "learn from the Father."

This is the second major problem with your interpretation. This is one of the clearest passages in all of scripture that shows the effectual calling of God in the heart of the believer. God himself will teach them, and every single one of them will hear him, and every single one of them will learn, and every single one of them will come to the Son. It is inescapable.

And why is this significant?

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 54, and the context there is when the Lord will make his New Covenant with his people, there called the
"covenant of peace", and just like the other prophetic passages that pointed forward to a new covenant, Isaiah shows that there is a new universal aspect to this new covenant: ALL who are in the new covenant community will personally know God! They will all be taught by him (Isa 54; John 6:45), the shall all know God, from the least to the greatest (Jer 31:34). So Jesus is demonstrating clearly that he is bringing in the Lord's new covenant, under which all the people in the covenant will personally know God and they will all respond to his calling and will all, infallibly, come to him.

So lets recap:

Those taught are those who come to Jesus. All who are taught will come, none are lost.
It so God who teaches, not the church. This is God effectively and infallibly teaching, calling and drawing people to the Son.
This is to fulfill the prophets vision of a new covenant age when all in the covenant will personally know the Lord.

This all adds together, demolishing your opinion and making your quotation of Matt 28:19....

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

...utterly irrelevant.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Nowhere do the scriptures ever say a man must be regenerated before he can come to Jesus and believe on him. What the scriptures do say and teach is that a man must be TAUGHT to have the ability to come and believed in Jesus. No man can possibly believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him.

Scriptures never say that all man needs is more knowledge in order to believe in Jesus. That's just flat wrong. It's true that no one can believe without knowing who Jesus is, but that does not negate the fact that no one can believe without it being granted to them by the Father.

Jhn 6:65 NASB - And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

Calvinists choose to completely ignore the many scriptures that teach this.

You can't ignore what doesn't exist.

So, you are truly butchering the interpretation of scriptures with your Calvinist "spin" on both John 6:44 and John 6:29.

God put the Calvinism into John 6, not C1.

 

[convicted1]

How so?
Can you elaborate?

Okay...winman has stated many times, using John 6:45 and Romans 10:13, and that those who are taught and learn of Jesus are the one drawn. Also, no one can know of Jesus, unless they have heard of Him. Both those statements are true. Now, how do those verses jive with John 12:32?


According to history, the native americans believed in an afterlife they called "the happy hunting ground". When they killed an animal, they left their heart so that their spirit would roam. They believed this but they never heard of Jesus until the pilgrims came around, what was it, 1620 or so? So, taking all of these verses into account, they just don't mesh, imo.

Then there were third world countries that never had missionairies for years, if I'm thinking correctly.

 

[convicted1]

Winman, winman, winman... *sigh*



While convicted1 hears the ripping of the context, I hear whimpering and agony... it's the sound of you torturing the text.



You continue to repeat this error. You think that man is only lacking knowledge. If only man acquired enough information he could be saved! I said it before, but that sounds like gnosticism to me. But that is not, at all, what this text teaches.

Pay attention:

Who is being taught in verse 45?

Jhn 6:45 NASB - "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

Those that come to the Son correct? Those are the ones being taught.

Hearing, learning and coming are all related in this text. That is the first major problem with your idea that knowledge is all we need. There are many who know A LOT about Jesus, and yet do not come. They refuse to come. If you were right, then every student in every Sunday School class would be a believer, and none would fall away. However Jesus says that EVERYONE who has heard and learned comes to him. Every single one. There is not one who hears that does not come. So we know right away that Jesus is not speaking about simple education or evangelism.


Now, who is doing the teaching? You propose that it is the church:



But you ignore Jesus' own words:

Jhn 6:45 NASB - "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

The NASB uses all caps to indicate OT quotations, here it also takes your attention to what you repeatedly ignore in this text. According to Jesus, who is the one giving this education?

God himself.

Not the church.

Pay attention to what he actually says,"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.'"

Not taught about God as you try to mangle it to say, but taught "OF God" or "BY God" (NKJV, NLT, NIV,ESV, HCSB etc.).

This is the second major problem with your interpretation. This is one of the clearest passages in all of scripture that shows the effectual calling of God in the heart of the believer. God himself will teach them, and every single one of them will hear him, and every single one of them will learn, and every single one of them will come to the Son. It is inescapable.

And why is this significant?

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 54, and the context there is when the Lord will make his New Covenant with his people, there called the
"covenant of peace", and just like the other prophetic passages that pointed forward to a new covenant, Isaiah shows that there is a new universal aspect to this new covenant: ALL who are in the new covenant community will personally know God! They will all be taught by him (Isa 54; John 6:45), the shall all know God, from the least to the greatest (Jer 31:34). So Jesus is demonstrating clearly that he is bringing in the Lord's new covenant, under which all the people in the covenant will personally know God and they will all respond to his calling and will all, infallibly, come to him.

So lets recap:

Those taught are those who come to Jesus. All who are taught will come, none are lost.
It so God who teaches, not the church. This is God effectively and infallibly teaching, calling and drawing people to the Son.
This is to fulfill the prophets vision of a new covenant age when all in the covenant will personally know the Lord.

This all adds together, demolishing your opinion and making your quotation of Matt 28:19....



...utterly irrelevant.



Scriptures never say that all man needs is more knowledge in order to believe in Jesus. That's just flat wrong. It's true that no one can believe without knowing who Jesus is, but that does not negate the fact that no one can believe without it being granted to them by the Father.

Jhn 6:65 NASB - And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

You can't ignore what doesn't exist.



God put the Calvinism into John 6, not C1.

 

[steaver]

I am going to tell you something, and it's the absolute truth. When I first was on here, from 2007 until last June-July, I believed in free will. I championed it with a vigor like the others do now. God slowly changed my beliefs to where I am right now. ..

Don't you find this fascinating though? God slowly changed your beliefs to Calvinism, and at the same time showed me that freewill was the truth of the scriptures, also showed Webdog to it seems.

Take Brother Webdog for instance. I don't agree with his theology, and he doesn't mine, but I truly respect him. Why? He was once a calvinist...thinking 4-pointer w/o believing the "L", but he'll have to clear that up for you. He is now where he's at. I respect that. That shows me he has an open mind, and more importantly, an open heart to learning.

So you see Webdog as having an open heart to learning and in his open heart to learning he went from Calvinism to Freewill. Your open heart went from Freewill to Calvinism. Strange don't you think? All of us claiming God showed us................

 

[convicted1]

Don't you find this fascinating though? God slowly changed your beliefs to Calvinism, and at the same time showed me that freewill was the truth of the scriptures, also showed Webdog to it seems.



So you see Webdog as having an open heart to learning and in his open heart to learning he went from Calvinism to Freewill. Your open heart went from Freewill to Calvinism. Strange don't you think? All of us claiming God showed us................

We all have to go with what we believe we've been shown. Finite minds can't truly grasp it all. The main thing is having His blood shed upon us.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Don't you find this fascinating though? God slowly changed your beliefs to Calvinism, and at the same time showed me that freewill was the truth of the scriptures, also showed Webdog to it seems.



So you see Webdog as having an open heart to learning and in his open heart to learning he went from Calvinism to Freewill. Your open heart went from Freewill to Calvinism. Strange don't you think? All of us claiming God showed us................

And so Steve, do you find complete truth in where your theological prospective s have led you? Are you content with all the answers?

 

[steaver]

And so Steve, do you find complete truth in where your theological prospective s have led you? Are you content with all the answers?

Never! Forever learning and willing to change my pov. How bout you?

 

[webdog]

Looks like a nice snappy reply WEBDOG...you like the plain reading:laugh:

really...then Con 1 already answered you on this;

5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth

opps:laugh::wavey: try again

That moses...always twisting the text, right!!!

To the casual reader, notice the red herring used by the determinist. Instead of dealing with the text stating manKIND is made in Gods image POST FALL., he then presents a completely unrelated text. It completely goes over his head that Seth could look like Adam and still be created in the image of God. Using his reasoning it wouldn't be murder to kill anyone but Adam.