Free will makes God appear impotent.

[convicted1]

Okay...winman has stated many times, using John 6:45 and Romans 10:13, and that those who are taught and learn of Jesus are the one drawn. Also, no one can know of Jesus, unless they have heard of Him. Both those statements are true. Now, how do those verses jive with John 12:32?


According to history, the native americans believed in an afterlife they called "the happy hunting ground". When they killed an animal, they left their heart so that their spirit would roam. They believed this but they never heard of Jesus until the pilgrims came around, what was it, 1620 or so? So, taking all of these verses into account, they just don't mesh, imo.

Then there were third world countries that never had missionairies for years, if I'm thinking correctly.

Again then answer me this...what about those who died in the mid-centuries who died never hearing of Jesus Christ? You'll appeal to mystery, just like the claim slammed on us. I have you cornered with this, and you know it.


If they died never hearing of Christ, unless you hold to mysticism, they couldn't have been saved.

Seeing that you're online Wes, will you PLEASE answer these posts for me?

 

[RLBosley]

you have outlined it very clearly here.

Thank you.

Bosley, Bosley, Bosley, what do you want?

A lot...
A new processor for my computer...
More sleep...
An R.A. Allan single column HCSB in Tan Goatskin...
World peace... (which will probably occur before the single column HCSB from Allan:laugh

But from you?

For now I'll settle on accurate handling of the scriptures.

Baloney, I showed that Albert Barnes agreed perfectly with my interpretation. He didn't write that for me, he died 84 years before I was born.

OK. The both of you can torture the text and be wrong together.

And if we're going to do an appeal to authority contest I'm pretty sure I can win.

I don't think it, the scriptures SAY it.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

There is not another verse in all the Bible that directly asks, "HOW shall they believe in him" speaking of Jesus. This verse is directly addressing the question of ABILITY to BELIEVE. Does Paul imply that a man needs to be regenerated to believe here? NO. Does Paul imply God the Father supernaturally injects faith in a man's mind here? NO. Paul implies that the man must HEAR of Jesus to believe.

That's it, that's all a man needs to believe, to hear of Jesus Christ and how he died for our sins and rose again. This is KNOWLEDGE. This knowledge enables any man to believe unto salvation in Christ. The scriptures directly say this.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Plain as day, Paul told Timothy that the scriptures were able to make him wise (knowledge) unto salvation through faith in Jesus.

The word of God will teach you that you are a lost sinner.

The word of God will teach you that God became flesh and dwelt among us.

The word of God will teach you that Jesus lived a sinless life under the law.

The word of God will teach you that Jesus died on the cross for OUR sins.

The word of God will teach you that Jesus rose from the dead, and now sits at the right hand of God.

The word of God teaches you that if you place your faith in Jesus you will be saved from your sins.

That's it, nothing else needed. This knowledge will enable you to trust Jesus as your Saviour if you will. And this is all Paul implies any man needs to believe on Jesus, he must hear of Jesus and the gospel.

That is correct, no man can come to Jesus unless he has heard and learned from the Father.

Yes, knowledge does not cause you to come, but it enables you to come. Those who refuse to truly listen and learn will not come. Many people hear the gospel, but they do not take it seriously.

The fundamental problem in all this is you totally ignore what Jesus actually said. You say that more knowledge is all that is needed, when actually Jesus says that you need the Father drawing you. You say that this knowledge enables the sinner to trust Christ, when Christ himself said it is actually the Father who enables sinners to come to the Son. You say that knowledge doesn't cause someone to come to Christ, but it enables them, they can still refuse - yet Jesus said that EVERY ONE who learns from the Father will come. It's that simple. So either you misunderstand what learning from the Father means, or Jesus was confused. I vote that you are mistaken.

God does not come down and speak to us personally like he did with the prophets, or with Paul. Today we have the completed word of God which is able to make us wise unto salvation.

But you have to listen, God doesn't listen for you, he does not learn for you. That is your responsibility.

God does not FORCE you to learn, you are pouring your doctrine into the text when it is not there. God gives us his word, but the man must HEAR, the man must LISTEN, and the man must LEARN. God does not hear for you, God does not listen for you, God does not learn for you, that is YOUR responsibility.

It is no different from school. The teacher gives the student everything he needs to enable him to learn, but the student must listen, study, and learn, no one can do that for you.

No one said God listens for us, that's just misdirection on your part. Try to focus please.

Again, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Jesus is referring to. When he says those that learn from the Father, he does not mean that God is collecting people up, bringing them to a class room and teaching a New Testament Survey! The whole context of John 6 is dealing with why these people refuse the Savior.

After all he has done and all they've seen, why do they continue in disbelief?

That is the context, Jesus is explaining their unbelief, and this hearing and learning from the Father is clearly parallel with being drawn by the Father, being given by the Father, enabling by the Father etc.

But you can't deal with that because it entirely refutes your position, so you have to jump around, to other passages dealing with other issues in other contexts to try and piece together something resembling coherent thought. Which is why you jump to Romans 10:

Did God come down and speak to you personally? Or did you hear the gospel from a preacher as Paul said in Romans 10?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Did Paul ask how a believer shall hear without God the Father personally teaching him? NO, Paul asks how they can hear without a PREACHER.

If you cannot see the difference between Romans 10 and John 6 I really can't help you.

In John 6 Jesus is dealing with the inward calling and drawing of God in order to explain the crowds unbelief. Romans 10 is dealing with the outward profession of faith in response to gospel preaching.

You see, you do not know the word of God, and this is why you err. If you listened to the word of God you would know God the Father uses the scriptures and preachers to teach men. God does not come down and speak personally with every believer as he did with Paul, that was an exception.

Coming from you that means practically nothing.

Pure bunk, you are pouring your doctrine into scripture again, it says no such thing.

Actually it does, and very clearly too. Every single one who hears and learns from the Father will come to the Son. Not a single one is lost. Every single one that is drawn by the Father will come to the Son, and not a single one is lost. If you would consistently read John 6 in its own context and not butcher it, you would see that the only options are either particular redemption or universalism.

Dude, you do not have a clue, because instead of listening to the word of God and learning from the Father, you have learned from listening to men who teach error.

The scriptures say that the word of God itself can make a man "wise" unto salvation through faith in Jesus.

You need to quit listening to false teachers and listen to the scriptures. You are WAAAAAAAY OFF!

Everything I have posted here is in accordance with scripture. I did not come to these conclusions from listening to men, but from my own study of the text. John 6 and John 10 are what convinced me of Calvinism, on their own. Of course I do listen to other men of faith, living and dead, because I would be stupid to ignore great resources of godly men that the Lord has used, but they have never and will never be the determining factor in my understanding of scripture.

 

[webdog]

None are w/o excuse per Romans 1. His creations show that there is God per Psalms 19.





Wasn't it Brigham Young or was it Smith that stated that an angel appeared unto him? Saul was the last one that Christ presented Himself to in a personal manner. I would never accept someone's testimony that Christ personally appeared to them, myself.

How do you know Paul was the last one? You don't, you are just basing it on an argument from silence. I have no reason to discount the testimony of anyone if it led to a true conversion.

 

[webdog]

"WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES TEACH?"

That no one can come to God unless/until they're drawn....

And? That doesn't refute anything. It merely shows Gods grace in reaching out to mankind, has nothing to do with the free agency of the individual.

 

[Yeshua1]

Believe taht the corrct understanding of that passage on hebrews 6 is either one of two things:

that those being spoken of were those under the Old covenat who heard the Gospel of Jesus as messiah, saw evidence of that in their assemblies, and yet in the end, turned back to Judaism, as John would say of them "Went out from us, as they were not with us
OR

The author is using that to state that since we have been etrnally saved by God thru the death of jesus, that state would be something not even a real possibility, as he later on states that he is persuaded that those he os addressing are/will be the ones to show forth fruit and evodence of being really saved, by remaining in the faith!

 

[Winman]

Thank you.

A lot...
A new processor for my computer...
More sleep...
An R.A. Allan single column HCSB in Tan Goatskin...
World peace... (which will probably occur before the single column HCSB from Allan:laugh

It must stink to be you.

But from you?

For now I'll settle on accurate handling of the scriptures.

You do get accurate handling of the scriptures from me, and I've proved that by showing well known theologians who agree with my interpretations perfectly.

OK. The both of you can torture the text and be wrong together.

Yeah, I'm sure you know a lot more than Albert Barnes did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Barnes_(theologian)

When Wiki writes an article on you, I will be impressed. :thumbsup:

And if we're going to do an appeal to authority contest I'm pretty sure I can win.

Don't be so sure.

The fundamental problem in all this is you totally ignore what Jesus actually said. You say that more knowledge is all that is needed, when actually Jesus says that you need the Father drawing you. You say that this knowledge enables the sinner to trust Christ, when Christ himself said it is actually the Father who enables sinners to come to the Son. You say that knowledge doesn't cause someone to come to Christ, but it enables them, they can still refuse - yet Jesus said that EVERY ONE who learns from the Father will come. It's that simple. So either you misunderstand what learning from the Father means, or Jesus was confused. I vote that you are mistaken.

I didn't ignore John 6:44 at all. I agree 100% that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but verse 45 explains how this is done, by TEACHING men about Jesus from the word of God. Only those men who have HEARD, and LEARNED, and been TAUGHT can come to Jesus.

And how are men taught from the Father? How do they hear from the Father and learn? From the Word of God. God doesn't supernaturally zap people with this knowledge.

No, if you believe in Jesus, it is because someone preached the word of God to you. And those spiritual truths revealed to you is what attracted and drew you to Jesus, just like everyone else.

I am not ignoring John 6:44, I am explaining it SCRIPTURALLY. Albert Barnes agreed with this as well.

Shall be all taught of God - This explains the preceding verse. It is by the teaching of his Word and Spirit that men are drawn to God. This shows that it is not compulsory, and that there is no obstacle in the way but a strong voluntary ignorance and unwillingness.

It is you that teaches falsehood. Nowhere do the scriptures teach that God draws men with irresistible grace, you cannot possibly show it.

Show it. You can't do it.

No one said God listens for us, that's just misdirection on your part. Try to focus please.

Again, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Jesus is referring to. When he says those that learn from the Father, he does not mean that God is collecting people up, bringing them to a class room and teaching a New Testament Survey! The whole context of John 6 is dealing with why these people refuse the Savior.

After all he has done and all they've seen, why do they continue in disbelief?

That is the context, Jesus is explaining their unbelief, and this hearing and learning from the Father is clearly parallel with being drawn by the Father, being given by the Father, enabling by the Father etc.

Free will and a love of sin my man! That is the answer. Men can reject God's grace, and some men do! They love sin more than they love God. They hear the message and understand it, but they want to continue in their sin.

It is no mystery, and you do not have to have a doctorate to understand this, it is obvious to anyone with a lick of sense.

But you can't deal with that because it entirely refutes your position, so you have to jump around, to other passages dealing with other issues in other contexts to try and piece together something resembling coherent thought. Which is why you jump to Romans 10:

I am not like you, I am not wed to certain "orthodox" positions. You must know that by now. I believe what I believe the scriptures truly teach, and I don't care if that upsets others or not.

If you cannot see the difference between Romans 10 and John 6 I really can't help you.

In John 6 Jesus is dealing with the inward calling and drawing of God in order to explain the crowds unbelief. Romans 10 is dealing with the outward profession of faith in response to gospel preaching.

None of what you are saying here is found in the Bible. Show me where the scriptures say God calls some men with a "general call" and others with an "effectual call". You can't do it, because it doesn't exist.

You believe something totally man-made that cannot be found in scripture anywhere. Unbelieveable!

Coming from you that means practically nothing.

Actually it does, and very clearly too. Every single one who hears and learns from the Father will come to the Son. Not a single one is lost. Every single one that is drawn by the Father will come to the Son, and not a single one is lost. If you would consistently read John 6 in its own context and not butcher it, you would see that the only options are either particular redemption or universalism.

No, Hebrews 6 teaches that men can be enlightened and even brought to repentance, and yet fall away in unbelief.

But no man can come to Jesus unless they have heard of him and learned about him from the word of God, which was given to us by the Father.

Everything I have posted here is in accordance with scripture. I did not come to these conclusions from listening to men, but from my own study of the text. John 6 and John 10 are what convinced me of Calvinism, on their own. Of course I do listen to other men of faith, living and dead, because I would be stupid to ignore great resources of godly men that the Lord has used, but they have never and will never be the determining factor in my understanding of scripture.

LOL! You cannot show one word of scripture to support your view. I challenge you to show where the scriptures say God regenerates or "zaps" a man to come. I challenge you to show where the scriptures teach there is a "general call" and an "effectual call"

Put your money where your mouth is. Prove your view IF you can.

I'll be waiting.

 

[Winman]

Originally Posted by convicted1 View Post
Okay...winman has stated many times, using John 6:45 and Romans 10:13, and that those who are taught and learn of Jesus are the one drawn. Also, no one can know of Jesus, unless they have heard of Him. Both those statements are true. Now, how do those verses jive with John 12:32?

According to history, the native americans believed in an afterlife they called "the happy hunting ground". When they killed an animal, they left their heart so that their spirit would roam. They believed this but they never heard of Jesus until the pilgrims came around, what was it, 1620 or so? So, taking all of these verses into account, they just don't mesh, imo.

Then there were third world countries that never had missionairies for years, if I'm thinking correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by convicted1 View Post
Again then answer me this...what about those who died in the mid-centuries who died never hearing of Jesus Christ? You'll appeal to mystery, just like the claim slammed on us. I have you cornered with this, and you know it.

If they died never hearing of Christ, unless you hold to mysticism, they couldn't have been saved.

Seeing that you're online Wes, will you PLEASE answer these posts for me?

OK, first of all, I only have a few minutes online in the morning, I have to go to work, so that is why I did not answer you.

But the truth is, I cannot answer you. It is not that I appeal to mystery as some sort of way of not answering you, it is that in reality I do not know the answer to your questions.

No one knows the answer to these questions.

But that does not prove your view. You do not know what happens to these folks either. You do not know for a certainty that God casts every one of them in hell. He MIGHT, he MIGHT NOT.

You need to give up this form of false argument. You need to quit letting yourself be deceived by this false form of argument. Just because no one can explain what happens to folks who never hear the gospel does not prove Calvinism. It does not prove that God passes some people by. It doesn't prove ANYTHING.

We could speculate all day long about what happens to these persons, and that is all it would be, SPECULATION.

This doesn't prove your view Willis, it really doesn't. It doesn't prove my view either, it doesn't prove anything.

Perhaps when we get to heaven we will learn the answer to this question. Perhaps not. I don't know, and neither do you.

 

[convicted1]

How do you know Paul was the last one? You don't, you are just basing it on an argument from silence. I have no reason to discount the testimony of anyone if it led to a true conversion.

You are grasping at straws with this belief. Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel to preach the gospel to the gentiles. He had the ability to raise the dead, heal the sick, and even the rags he touched could heal people. If these guys you believed can do this, then you have something to stand on. Ask them to make a quadraplegic walk...

 

[RLBosley]

It must stink to be you.

Not really.

I am immensely blessed.

You do get accurate handling of the scriptures from me, and I've proved that by showing well known theologians who agree with my interpretations perfectly.

And so someone agreeing with you is the proof of your correctness? That's interesting.

Yeah, I'm sure you know a lot more than Albert Barnes did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Barnes_(theologian)

When Wiki writes an article on you, I will be impressed. :thumbsup:

OK, he's on Wikipedia - so is Joseph Smith. What's your point? Winman, it seems the more you lose a debate the more irrational your defense becomes, because this is a really silly way to determine who is correct.

I didn't ignore John 6:44 at all. I agree 100% that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but verse 45 explains how this is done, by TEACHING men about Jesus from the word of God. Only those men who have HEARD, and LEARNED, and been TAUGHT can come to Jesus.

And how are men taught from the Father? How do they hear from the Father and learn? From the Word of God. God doesn't supernaturally zap people with this knowledge.

No, if you believe in Jesus, it is because someone preached the word of God to you. And those spiritual truths revealed to you is what attracted and drew you to Jesus, just like everyone else.

I am not ignoring John 6:44, I am explaining it SCRIPTURALLY.

No you are not. You are 100% ignoring what Jesus actually says. He does not say that these people who come to him are taught about the Father by other believers, but he says they are taught BY the Father. There is nothing here whatsoever that implies this teaching is done through any secondary means at all, otherwise Jesus would be wrong in saying that every one that is taught comes. This is not education that enables a decision to be made - you are outright making that up - it is instead a powerful, inward, compelling that infallibly brings one to the son of God.

I am not denying, in anyway, the necessity of preaching the gospel and the absolute necessity that one must hear the gospel in order to be saved. however, this text in John 6 is not dealing with the outward preaching of the gospel, but the inward response to God's drawing.

Albert Barnes agreed with this as well.

And like you, he is wrong.

If we are going to go this direction then I give you Matthew Henry:

Secondly, He here acquaints us how it shall be done. How shall those who are given to Christ be brought to him? Two things are to be done in order to it:-

a. Their understandings shall be enlightened; this is promised, v. 45, 46. It is written in the prophets, who spoke of these things before, And they shall be all taught of God; this we find, Isa. 54:13, and Jer. 31:34. They shall all know me. Note,

(a.) In order to our believing in Jesus Christ, it is necessary that we be taught of God; that is, [a.] That there be a divine revelation made to us, discovering to us both what we are to believe concerning Christ and why we are to believe it. There are some things which even nature teaches, but to bring us to Christ there is need of a higher light. [b.] That there be a divine work wrought in us, enabling us to understand and receive these revealed truths and the evidence of them. God, in giving us reason, teaches us more than the beasts of the earth; but in giving us faith he teaches more than the natural man. Thus all the church's children, all that are genuine, are taught of God; he hath undertaken their education.

(b.) It follows then, by way of inference from this, that every man that has heard and learned of the Father comes to Christ, v. 45. [a.] It is here implied that none will come to Christ but those that have heard and learned of the Father. We shall never be brought to Christ but under a divine conduct; except God by his grace enlighten our minds, inform our judgments, and rectify our mistakes, and not only tell us that we may hear, but teach us, that we may learn the truth as it is in Jesus, we shall never be brought to believe in Christ. [b.] That this divine teaching does so necessarily produce the faith of God's elect that we may conclude that those who do not come to Christ have never heard nor learned of the Father; for, if they had, doubtless they would have come to Christ.

And Jameison, Fausset and Brown:

45. written in the prophets--in Isa 54:13 Jer 31:33, 34; other similar passages may also have been in view. Our Lord thus falls back upon Scripture authority for this seemingly hard saying.
all taught of God--not by external revelation merely, but by internal illumination, corresponding to the "drawing" of Jhn 6:44.
Every man therefore, &c.--that is, who hath been thus efficaciously taught of Him.
cometh unto me--with absolute certainty, yet in the sense above given of "drawing"; that is, "As none can come to Me but as divinely drawn, so none thus drawn shall fail to come."

Heck, I'll even give you Chuck Smith!

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, comes to Me (Jhn 6:45).

God has taught us; He's laid it upon our hearts.

Free will and a love of sin my man! That is the answer. Men can reject God's grace, and some men do! They love sin more than they love God. They hear the message and understand it, but they want to continue in their sin.

It is no mystery, and you do not have to have a doctorate to understand this, it is obvious to anyone with a lick of sense.

Where does Jesus say that they refuse to come to him because of their "free will"? Again, Jesus is explaining their unbelief. He says precisely nothing about their will, but that they do not believe in him because they have not been given to him by the Father (v36-40).

I am not like you, I am not wed to certain "orthodox" positions. You must know that by now. I believe what I believe the scriptures truly teach, and I don't care if that upsets others or not.

Oh yes. I am aware you are not interested in biblical orthodoxy.

It's such a shame that you believe interpreting scripture in it's proper contexts means one is "wed" to certain positions.

None of what you are saying here is found in the Bible. Show me where the scriptures say God calls some men with a "general call" and others with an "effectual call". You can't do it, because it doesn't exist.

You believe something totally man-made that cannot be found in scripture anywhere. Unbelieveable!

Already showed you one place - John 6. You refuse to see it, but you can't refute it.

No, Hebrews 6 teaches that men can be enlightened and even brought to repentance, and yet fall away in unbelief.

So Jesus was either confused, or lying when he said that none that come to him will be cast out - that of everyone that he receives, none will be lost?

But no man can come to Jesus unless they have heard of him and learned about him from the word of God, which was given to us by the Father.

I can agree with that. Of course that has zip to do with John 6, but you are correct that people must hear the gospel in order to be converted.

LOL! You cannot show one word of scripture to support your view. I challenge you to show where the scriptures say God regenerates or "zaps" a man to come. I challenge you to show where the scriptures teach there is a "general call" and an "effectual call"

Put your money where your mouth is. Prove your view IF you can.

I'll be waiting.

Already done.

 

[convicted1]

You are grasping at straws with this belief. Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel to preach the gospel to the gentiles. He had the ability to raise the dead, heal the sick, and even the rags he touched could heal people. If these guys you believed can do this, then you have something to stand on. Ask them to make a quadraplegic walk...

Let me clean this up a bit. What I mean is we have to be careful here. People have made those claims, Joseph Smith was one. I wouldn't believe my pastor if he told me that Jesus appeared to him.

 

[Yeshua1]

Let me clean this up a bit. What I mean is we have to be careful here. People have made those claims, Joseph Smith was one. I wouldn't believe my pastor if he told me that Jesus appeared to him.

Especially since theBible seems to make it clear that jesus last personal visitation was to the Apostle born out of season, paul!

 

[MB]

Hi Convicted;
Once you were freewill your self.
You Said;

Look closely at that last line; “the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or god.” Now, if that doesn’t render God impotent, then what does? I agree that sinners have a will, yet that will is not “free”, but it is bound to it’s nature. An apple tree can produce nothing other than apples. To do so would be contrary to it’s nature. Only outside influences such as grafting can make it produce another type of apple. I touched on this very subject a few blogs ago, so I’ll leave it here.

I admit that no one can come to the Lord unless they are drawn, but to say no one has a choice is ridiculous. Everyman has a choice and until it can be proved to me they don't from scripture. I will not fall for that one. Men cannot come to God unless they are drawn. Men are not saved by there own ability, but by the convincing of them by the Holy Spirit.

The decisions of men have no effect on God's abilities or, reputation and it is presumptive to assume it does. We can't think for God and His power is beyond every man. Freewill exist or, else I would not have been able to resist Him as long as I did.

The only men who have no choice for Salvation are those who have had no offer of Salvation made to them. They simply have no choice because they aren't aware they have one. They have no idea of Jesus. No idea of a Savior or even that they need one.
MB

 

[Winman]

Not really.

I am immensely blessed.

Then quit complaining.

And so someone agreeing with you is the proof of your correctness? That's interesting.

Well, Barnes was a Calvinist, so he shouldn't be in agreement with me, but he was, because that is what the scriptures are actually saying. No scripture is of personal interpretation, you can't simply make the scriptures say what you WANT them to say.

OK, he's on Wikipedia - so is Joseph Smith. What's your point? Winman, it seems the more you lose a debate the more irrational your defense becomes, because this is a really silly way to determine who is correct.

Albert Barnes was an actual theologian, he didn't make up some story about meeting an angel who gave him some special reading glasses so he could read some gold plates he found buried in the middle of the woods in New York State in the mid 1800s with ancient hieroglyphics written on them.

So, it is your argument that is ridiculous, not mine.

No you are not. You are 100% ignoring what Jesus actually says. He does not say that these people who come to him are taught about the Father by other believers, but he says they are taught BY the Father. There is nothing here whatsoever that implies this teaching is done through any secondary means at all, otherwise Jesus would be wrong in saying that every one that is taught comes. This is not education that enables a decision to be made - you are outright making that up - it is instead a powerful, inward, compelling that infallibly brings one to the son of God.

Jesus said every man that comes to him was taught by the Father. They have heard and learned from the Father. This is what draws them to come to Jesus.

Jesus was talking about the Word of God, the Holy Scriptures. You can deny if you want, but that is what Jesus was speaking about, and Albert Barnes knew that.

God doesn't supernaturally zap people with the gospel. If you heard the gospel, then you either read it in the scriptures, or you heard a preacher preach the gospel from the scriptures. That is how you came to know and understand the gospel, and this is what enabled you to come to Jesus and believe on him.

I am not denying, in anyway, the necessity of preaching the gospel and the absolute necessity that one must hear the gospel in order to be saved. however, this text in John 6 is not dealing with the outward preaching of the gospel, but the inward response to God's drawing.

You would be foolish to deny that God brings people to Christ by the foolishness of preaching. It doesn't say God zapped them.

You do not have one word of scripture to support this "inward call" or "effectual call" or whatever you want to call it. There is not a single scripture in all the Bible that teaches this.

If so, then please present the scripture that teaches this. It should be EASY for you to do.

And like you, he is wrong.

If we are going to go this direction then I give you Matthew Henry:


And Jameison, Fausset and Brown:


Heck, I'll even give you Chuck Smith!

Where does Jesus say that they refuse to come to him because of their "free will"? Again, Jesus is explaining their unbelief. He says precisely nothing about their will, but that they do not believe in him because they have not been given to him by the Father (v36-40).

I can show you where Jesus says people will not come to him because of their free will.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

There it is, plain as day, Jesus said these unbelievers "will not" come to me. He didn't say they "cannot" come to me. By their own free will they rejected Jesus and refused to come to him.

See, the difference between you and I is that I actually present SCRIPTURE that supports my view. You simply make unsupported claims.

Oh yes. I am aware you are not interested in biblical orthodoxy.

For many it is orthodox to baptize babies. Will you do that because it is orthodox and been done for 2000 years? Why not?

It's such a shame that you believe interpreting scripture in it's proper contexts means one is "wed" to certain positions.

Again, Albert Barnes a respected theologian interpreted the scripture exactly as I did.

Already showed you one place - John 6. You refuse to see it, but you can't refute it.

You haven't shown one word that teaches a "general" and "effectual" call. You can't do it, because no such scripture exists.

You must think people are stupid. Nobody is fooled, you have shown exactly ZERO evidence for your view. You couldn't show it if you wanted to. You have simply let other people tell you falsehood, and you have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

So Jesus was either confused, or lying when he said that none that come to him will be cast out - that of everyone that he receives, none will be lost?

I don't disagree with this at all. Where did you get this from?

I can agree with that. Of course that has zip to do with John 6, but you are correct that people must hear the gospel in order to be converted.

Already done.

In Romans 10:14 Paul asks HOW SHALL THEY BELIEVE IN HIM?

Paul is directly addressing the ABILITY to believe on Jesus for salvation in this verse. There is no other verse like in in all the Bible.

Does Paul say or imply a person has to be regenerated to believe in Jesus? NO, Paul simply implies they must HEAR of Jesus.

Did Paul say or imply they must be regenerated to have the ability to hear? NOPE, he implies that a preacher must be sent to preach the gospel.

That's it. Period. Paul implies that all that is necessary for any man to believe on Jesus is that a preacher come and preach the gospel to them so they can hear it. End of story.

Now that is what the scriptures REALLY say. They don't say you have to be zapped to believe, they don't say God has to send an "effectual" call for you to believe.

You have let men pull the wool over your eyes.

 

[convicted1]

Hi Convicted;
Once you were freewill your self.
You Said;


I admit that no one can come to the Lord unless they are drawn, but to say no one has a choice is ridiculous. Everyman has a choice and until it can be proved to me they don't from scripture. I will not fall for that one. Men cannot come to God unless they are drawn. Men are not saved by there own ability, but by the convincing of them by the Holy Spirit.

The decisions of men have no effect on God's abilities or, reputation and it is presumptive to assume it does. We can't think for God and His power is beyond every man. Freewill exist or, else I would not have been able to resist Him as long as I did.

The only men who have no choice for Salvation are those who have had no offer of Salvation made to them. They simply have no choice because they aren't aware they have one. They have no idea of Jesus. No idea of a Savior or even that they need one.
MB

None have a choice to be saved. God draws, and they freely come. None that He effectually calls fail to come. What I mean by none have a choice to be saved is that Jesus told His disciples, "ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you." We can't have a choice to come to Him for salvation until He first draws. When He draws, they will come.

 

[convicted1]

OK, first of all, I only have a few minutes online in the morning, I have to go to work, so that is why I did not answer you.

But the truth is, I cannot answer you. It is not that I appeal to mystery as some sort of way of not answering you, it is that in reality I do not know the answer to your questions.

No one knows the answer to these questions.

But that does not prove your view. You do not know what happens to these folks either. You do not know for a certainty that God casts every one of them in hell. He MIGHT, he MIGHT NOT.

You need to give up this form of false argument. You need to quit letting yourself be deceived by this false form of argument. Just because no one can explain what happens to folks who never hear the gospel does not prove Calvinism. It does not prove that God passes some people by. It doesn't prove ANYTHING.

We could speculate all day long about what happens to these persons, and that is all it would be, SPECULATION.

This doesn't prove your view Willis, it really doesn't. It doesn't prove my view either, it doesn't prove anything.

Perhaps when we get to heaven we will learn the answer to this question. Perhaps not. I don't know, and neither do you.

You may not have an answer, but I do. God saves via the gospel. Not every living human being who has ever lived knew about Jesus. Then, if they haven't heard about Him, then how can they be saved?

 

[webdog]

None have a choice to be saved. God draws, and they freely come. None that He effectually calls fail to come. What I mean by none have a choice to be saved is that Jesus told His disciples, "ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you." We can't have a choice to come to Him for salvation until He first draws. When He draws, they will come.

None have a choice to reject either then. Your doctrine gives man the perfect excuse and is not even justice in man's flawed justice system.

 

[webdog]

You may not have an answer, but I do. God saves via the gospel. Not every living human being who has ever lived knew about Jesus. Then, if they haven't heard about Him, then how can they be saved?

So none if the OT saints were saved? No babies?

 

[Winman]

So none if the OT saints were saved? No babies?

What about Rahab the harlot? What did she know?

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Are we to imagine that Rahab knew the gospel? Yet this scripture clearly implies she was not only physically saved, but saved when she died as well.

 

[RLBosley]

Then quit complaining.

Who's complaining? Not me.

Well, Barnes was a Calvinist, so he shouldn't be in agreement with me, but he was, because that is what the scriptures are actually saying. No scripture is of personal interpretation, you can't simply make the scriptures say what you WANT them to say.

And Chuck Smith was extremely anti-calvinistic, and shouldn't agree with me yet he did. Big deal.

Albert Barnes was an actual theologian, he didn't make up some story about meeting an angel who gave him some special reading glasses so he could read some gold plates he found buried in the middle of the woods in New York State in the mid 1800s with ancient hieroglyphics written on them.

So, it is your argument that is ridiculous, not mine.

I was pointing out that you were arguing his merit as theologian, contrary to mine, based on the fact there is a wiki page on him. That proves nothing.

Jesus said every man that comes to him was taught by the Father. They have heard and learned from the Father. This is what draws them to come to Jesus.

While true, you have the quotation backwards. Jesus said:

Jhn 6:45 NASB - "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."​

Everyone who hears and learns comes. I agree that everyone who comes will have first learned, but the specific way Jesus phrases this refutes your position. You are saying that multitudes will learn and hear yet never come. Jesus denies that by saying that EVERY ONE who has heard and learned from the Father will come.

Jesus was talking about the Word of God, the Holy Scriptures. You can deny if you want, but that is what Jesus was speaking about, and Albert Barnes knew that.

God doesn't supernaturally zap people with the gospel. If you heard the gospel, then you either read it in the scriptures, or you heard a preacher preach the gospel from the scriptures. That is how you came to know and understand the gospel, and this is what enabled you to come to Jesus and believe on him.

You cannot prove from John 6 that he is speaking of the word of God. It simply isn't there at all. You make this assertion yet you have totally failed to prove it. Yes hearing the gospel and understanding it is the outward cause of coming to faith, but that is not what John 6 is talking about, that would be Romans 10. But again, your commitment to your tradition and the sovereignty of man prevents you from actually understanding the scriptures.

You do not have one word of scripture to support this "inward call" or "effectual call" or whatever you want to call it. There is not a single scripture in all the Bible that teaches this.

If so, then please present the scripture that teaches this. It should be EASY for you to do.

It is plain, from a clear consistent reading of this chapter, that Jesus is here speaking of something inward not external. And it is infallible. The language Jesus uses makes it clear that he nor the Father will fail at all. All the Father gives to the Son will come, the Son will receive them all, none are lost and all are raised at the last day. We see that all who are given by the Father are "taught" by the Father and every one of them will come to the Son.

There is no way whatsoever that you can make this out to be the external preaching and teaching of the gospel, unless you believe that every single person who has ever heard the gospel will be saved.

So John 6 clearly presents the inward, infallible calling straight from the Father.

The following verses also point to the inward, effectual calling by God:

Act 2:39 NASB - "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Rom 1:6 NASB - among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Rom 8:28, 30 NASB - And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. ... and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Rom 9:11, 24 NASB - for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, ... even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

1Co 1:26 NASB - For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;

Gal 1:15 NASB - But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased

Eph 4:4 NASB - There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

1Th 5:24 NASB - Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

2Ti 1:9 NASB - who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Heb 9:15 NASB - For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

1Pe 1:15 NASB - but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

1Pe 5:10 NASB - After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

2Pe 1:10 NASB - Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;​

Simultaneously scripture teaches that much of our gospel preaching will be ignored and rejected in the world. That would be what has been termed the outward or external call. That can be and often is rejected.

I can show you where Jesus says people will not come to him because of their free will.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

There it is, plain as day, Jesus said these unbelievers "will not" come to me. He didn't say they "cannot" come to me. By their own free will they rejected Jesus and refused to come to him.

That says nothing of a free will. It says the will not come to him, but says nothing of their desire to come or their ability. The rejected Christ, not because of some free will, that's silly. If they were truly free they should recognize that Jesus is what they desperately need and would be trampling each other to get to him. Instead we have a clear demonstration that their will is in bondage and they will not come to Christ even though he is what they need.

And again, in John 6 Jesus actually does say that they cannot come unless the Father grants it:

Jhn 6:65 NASB - And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

You haven't shown one word that teaches a "general" and "effectual" call. You can't do it, because no such scripture exists.

See above.

You must think people are stupid. Nobody is fooled, you have shown exactly ZERO evidence for your view. You couldn't show it if you wanted to. You have simply let other people tell you falsehood, and you have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

Except that I came to this conclusion from studying the Bible, not from just adopting others views and I have consistently shown what John 6 teaches and other passages in support of my view. Of course you don't actually care about that, you just want to insult me and malign my character.

In Romans 10:14 Paul asks HOW SHALL THEY BELIEVE IN HIM?

Paul is directly addressing the ABILITY to believe on Jesus for salvation in this verse. There is no other verse like in in all the Bible.

Does Paul say or imply a person has to be regenerated to believe in Jesus? NO, Paul simply implies they must HEAR of Jesus.

Did Paul say or imply they must be regenerated to have the ability to hear? NOPE, he implies that a preacher must be sent to preach the gospel.

That's it. Period. Paul implies that all that is necessary for any man to believe on Jesus is that a preacher come and preach the gospel to them so they can hear it. End of story.

Now that is what the scriptures REALLY say. They don't say you have to be zapped to believe, they don't say God has to send an "effectual" call for you to believe.

You have let men pull the wool over your eyes.

I agree that in Romans 10 Paul does not talk about the necessity of regeneration or of the inward call.
That's because that is not the point of Romans 10.

He is speaking of the response to the preaching of the gospel, particularly regarding Israel's rejection of the gospel. He is not trying to explain the reason for their unbelief (other than the fulfillment of prophecy) like Jesus is in John 6.

 

[convicted1]

None have a choice to reject either then. Your doctrine gives man the perfect excuse and is not even justice in man's flawed justice system.

Rejecting Him isn't a choice, it's their nature. They freely reject Him.