Free will makes God appear impotent.

[preacher4truth]

We can debate freewill post fall. But we must first acknowledge the truth that sovereignty has nothing to do with freewill, Adam had it, you Calvinist even say he did. So will you acknowledge sovereignty has nothing to do with freewill?

Nice try friend. The Scriptures I've given refute your notion of decisional salvation and state we are not free in any sense until Christ sets us free. :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Nice try friend. The Scriptures I've given refute your notion of decisional salvation and state we are not free in any sense until Christ sets us free. :thumbs:

Again, you are stuck on post fall, we can debate that. Calvinist acknowledge Adam had freewill pre-fall and God still had His sovereignty.

 

[steaver]

Look closely at that last line; “the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or god.” Now, if that doesn’t render God impotent, then what does?

Did God then cause Adam to choose sin?

 

[Winman]

This is where understanding regeneration being the starting point and not the finish line is important. The will to choose God, from our part, is after regeneration has taken place. We then freely choose Him, because He has given us the ability to do so.

You don't really mean "free" because you mean the man will irresistibly choose God. He cannot make an alternate choice, so he is not free at all.

When you say "free" you mean the man will make the choice he desires, and that if he desired different he could choose different. That's all smoke, because you do not believe he could possibly desire different.

Calvinism must redefine words to work. They redefine desire as freedom. They believe an unregenerate man can only desire sin, so he is free to choose only sin. They believe a regenerate man can only desire good, so he is free to choose good.

This is redefining freedom. If you do not have the ability to choose either sin or good, then you are not free at all.

The scriptures do not teach that man is forced to choose only his desires or nature. The scriptures teach that a "servant of sin" can choose to obey the gospel.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The Calvinists will not address this scripture, because it destroys their false teachings. Paul showed that these Romans who "were servants of sin" obeyed the gospel. Their sin nature did not compel them to choose only sin, they were able to choose good and believe the gospel.

And the moment these slaves of sin chose to believe the gospel they were made free from sin, and became the servants or slaves of righteousness.

The scriptures do not agree with Calvinist doctrine whatsoever. The scriptures teach that even slaves of sin can choose to believe the gospel from their heart.

Game over.

 

[preacher4truth]

Again, you are stuck on post fall, we can debate that. Calvinist acknowledge Adam had freewill pre-fall and God still had His sovereignty.

You still have not and still refuse to answer Scripture given.

Scripture clearly refutes man being free and of salvation being decisional.

This reminds me of a problem in the church of those within who say; 'I've always believed...' and that steaver is your stance.

 

[Winman]

Christ preached man is not free until He sets them free -- Note John 8. This includes every aspect of mans person which includes his will, yet you are preaching man IS free in his will.

So, I must ask, are you schooling Christ?

I don't believe that your view is a proper interpretation of what Jesus said.

Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Does this verse say a person must be regenerated before they can make a free choice? NOPE, there is not one word to this effect in this verse.

Jesus simply said the truth shall make you free. It is simply listening to and learning from the word of God that makes you free. You do not need to be regnerated. Preacher4truth cannot show that anywhere in the Bible.

No, faith comes by "hearing" (not being regenerated), and hearing by the word of God.

If a man will simply listen to the word of God and learn from it, the word will enable him to believe on Jesus.

2 Tim 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The scriptures do not teach that a man has to be regenerated to believe, the scriptures teach that the word of God is able to make a man "wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus".

Calvinism wants salvation to be some magical, mystical event that no one can understand, but Jesus told his disciples to go out and TEACH all nations, TEACHING them to observe all things I have commanded you. A man can LEARN that Jesus is the Son of God who died for his sins and rose from the dead, and this knowledge enables any man to put his trust in Jesus and be saved if he will choose to do so.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Don't drink the Calvinist Kool-Aid folks.

 

[steaver]

You still have not and still refuse to answer Scripture given.

Scripture clearly refutes man being free and of salvation being decisional.

This reminds me of a problem in the church of those within who say; 'I've always believed...' and that steaver is your stance.

This is debatable, but doesn't it appear that it is you who are saying "I've always believed...." when you refuse to admit that freewill does not usurp God's sovereignty? Adam had freewill, correct? Did God set aside His sovereignty then? Was God impotent and unable to stop Adam from sinning? Do you see the silliness of the Calvinist's argument using sovereignty as the issue?

 

[convicted1]

Again, Adam was born upright, sinless, holy, none of us can say that...at least with a straight face. We are made in Adam's image, post-fall....

 

[preacher4truth]

This is debatable, but doesn't it appear that it is you who are saying "I've always believed...." when you refuse to admit that freewill does not usurp God's sovereignty? Adam had freewill, correct? Did God set aside His sovereignty then? Was God impotent and unable to stop Adam from sinning? Do you see the silliness of the Calvinist's argument using sovereignty as the issue?

You've still not dealt with the texts. You continue to travel upon what you've always believed.

 

[webdog]

Not being arrogant or nasty whatsoever...just stating the truth...truth is never arrogant...nasty? Yes. The truth hurts...cuts deep...

Add blinded and hardened to the charge. Wow. We worship free will? Unbelievable.

Apparently the truth does cut deep for you to resort to such lows.

 

[webdog]

Again, Adam was born upright, sinless, holy, none of us can say that...at least with a straight face. We are made in Adam's image, post-fall....

"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

- God (post fall )

 

[Winman]

"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

- God (post fall )

 

[Iconoclast]

"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

- God (post fall )

Capital punishment is valid because of man pre-fall being made in God's image.
Con 1 is correct after the fall the image is still there but corrupted and fallen...

 

[webdog]

Capital punishment is valid because of man pre-fall being made in God's image.
Con 1 is correct after the fall the image is still there but corrupted and fallen...

I'll take the non twisted plain reading, thank you. Note: mankind...not Adam.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'll take the non twisted plain reading, thank you.

Looks like a nice snappy reply WEBDOG...you like the plain reading:laugh:

really...then Con 1 already answered you on this;

5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth

opps:laugh::wavey: try again

That moses...always twisting the text, right!!!

 

[convicted1]

Add blinded and hardened to the charge. Wow. We worship free will? Unbelievable.

Apparently the truth does cut deep for you to resort to such lows.

People say they freely chose Christ. That's correct. But it runs much deeper than that. If one is truly free...free means no restraints, then we could approach God w/o any drawing from Him. That is why Jesus spokes the words "unless" and "except". Those are qualifying words. That shows me that we weren't free in the least. We had ability...response-ABLE to come only after He calls us....


--no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;John 6:44 (YLT)


Here Jesus states that no man is able to come unto Me, if the Father which sent Me draws him. How then is one's will free? There's some qualitative words there that are there for a reason.


--Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'John 6:29 (YLT)


Even the ability to believe in Jesus is the work of God via the gift of faith.

 

[convicted1]

When I first encountered convicted1's interactions here I thought he was quite nice and sincere. I have seen an evolution of sorts of transformation over the past few weeks.

Notice not one post dealing with the FACT that God gave Adam freewill and it did NOT usurp any of God's sovereignty at all, not one ounce. Why do we think that is? If they were to correct this error found within their preaching, that is that it is all about sovereignty, then what would happen to the rest of the TULIP???? They know........but yet refuse.

I am going to tell you something, and it's the absolute truth. When I first was on here, from 2007 until last June-July, I believed in free will. I championed it with a vigor like the others do now. God slowly changed my beliefs to where I am right now. Go back and read some of my posts from a few years ago if you don't believe me. I have been on both sides of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, and trust me, the nastiest posts I have received are from the Armminians on here.

The problem I have is with all the obstinance on here. Most don't want to learn, but show others what they know. I came on here to learn. God has used many wonderful people on here to help me with my beliefs. I used to hold to modalism, not Jesus only, but God only...meaning God expressed Himself three different ways instead of a triune God. Then someone told me Jesus wasn't God and I thought he was an idiot. I then read Rev. 5, and saw God on the throne and Jesus taking the book from His right hand. I then thought Jesus was not God, but the Son of God only. I went around with this new learned teaching, telling people that Jesus was not God. I was the idiot. The understanding of the Trinity confused me for sooooo long. But these fine people on here, by not asking questions, but reading posts, God used them to help me understand His word better. I then got a clear view of the Triune God.


I was also once a borderline antinomian, pretty close to JamesL's belief. But after God changed my views on the scriptures, I dropped that notion quickly.


Take Brother Webdog for instance. I don't agree with his theology, and he doesn't mine, but I truly respect him. Why? He was once a calvinist...thinking 4-pointer w/o believing the "L", but he'll have to clear that up for you. He is now where he's at. I respect that. That shows me he has an open mind, and more importantly, an open heart to learning. Too many on here are set in stone, and haven't change their beliefs one iota. That show me they're a closed door and still on milk....

 

[convicted1]

"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

- God (post fall )

God made mankind...Adam....Adam was created, Eve made from Adam's rib...


We are procreated beings...made in the image of Adam, post-fall. The marred image of God, just like Seth was made in Adam's image, so are we...

 

[convicted1]

Looks like a nice snappy reply WEBDOG...you like the plain reading:laugh:

really...then Con 1 already answered you on this;

5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth

opps:wavey: try again

That moses...always twisting the text, right!!!

I borrowed this from winman's previous post....

 

[Winman]

People say they freely chose Christ. That's correct. But it runs much deeper than that. If one is truly free...free means no restraints, then we could approach God w/o any drawing from Him. That is why Jesus spokes the words "unless" and "except". Those are qualifying words. That shows me that we weren't free in the least. We had ability...response-ABLE to come only after He calls us....


--no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;John 6:44 (YLT)

No man could come to Jesus unless God the Father had revealed him unto us. That is what the next verse says.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jhn 6:45 explains verse 44. Does it say a man has to be regenerated to be drawn to Jesus? No, it says they have to be TAUGHT. What men lack that prevents them from coming to Jesus is KNOWLEDGE. That is why Jesus commanded us to go out and TEACH all nations.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Nowhere do the scriptures ever say a man must be regenerated before he can come to Jesus and believe on him. What the scriptures do say and teach is that a man must be TAUGHT to have the ability to come and believed in Jesus. No man can possibly believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him.

Calvinists choose to completely ignore the many scriptures that teach this.

Here Jesus states that no man is able to come unto Me, if the Father which sent Me draws him. How then is one's will free? There's some qualitative words there that are there for a reason.

Jesus is not addressing man's will. He is addressing man's knowledge. You are twisting the scriptures to say something that is not being said. The very next verse says only those persons who have heard and learned from the Father, those men who have been taught can come to Jesus.

So, you are just butchering the scriptures with a false interpretation.

--Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'John 6:29 (YLT)


Even the ability to believe in Jesus is the work of God via the gift of faith.

You are really butchering the scriptures here. The Jews had just asked Jesus what works THEY might do to do the works of God. Jesus gave them a direct answer, the work of God is to believe on him. Jesus is telling these persons that if they want to please God and do those works that please him, then believe on him.

Jesus is not saying that God implants faith in men as you are falsely trying to say.

This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

Albert Barnes was a Calvinist, but he knew what Jesus was saying here, he was telling these persons they must believe on Jesus to be saved.

So, you are truly butchering the interpretation of scriptures with your Calvinist "spin" on both John 6:44 and John 6:29.