Pope Francis??

[The Biblicist]

The problem with your supposition is that none of the verses which I am referring even mentions Justificaton.

If I had limited my words to merely justification you would have a point. However, I did not limit it to justification. I said Rome confuses justification with SANCTIFICATION and your passages do relate to sanctification, and you do draw conclusions that confuse sanctification passages with justification as final salvation is obtained by justification which is limited to the Person of Christ and works performed in HIS BODY during HIS LIFE. Whereas, sanctification is about works performed in OUR BODY in OUR LIFE.

The problem as I see it by applying the verses you have quoted as you did, is absolve the believer of any responsibility for any of their actions.

You are assuming that the only application of these scriptures are to TRUE believers when in fact, effectual perseverance in saving faith (Heb. 12:2) is proof a true believer. Whereas, false professors routinely fail this criteria, which in fact is designed to reveal the true from the false.

You completely pass over John 6:38-39 and my interpretative remarks, why? Why can't you deal with that clear explicit text which speficically deals with the issue whether TRUE believers can be lost???????

I believe the scriptures as they are written that God is the author and finisher of our faith as long as we remain faithful to him.

You are free to believe what you like, but you are not free to choose what is factual and what is not. He is not only the author and finisher but he is also the sustainer of that faith (Philip. 1:6) as again John 6:37-39 prove explicitly and clearly.

To say, as you have, that it is God's responsibility alone to keep you from sin is to lay the blame for all your sins committed as a believer (not prior to faith) directly on God.

I said no such thing. I NEVER said God keeps you from sin! NEVER! Those are your words and not mine. However, sin is not the issue, as you are no more able to overcome sin after salvation as you were before salvation and the proof is that you do in fact sin. So keeping us from sinning is not the issue. Justification does not keep us from sinning. Sanctification does not keep us from sinning. You will sin every single day you live until the day you die. Our justification is not based upon anything we do or don't do, but on what Christ did in HIS OWN BODY and in HIS OWN LIFE. That is what obtains heaven for us, and the only thing that can obtain heaven is a SINLESS LIFE. A sinful life, even when being daily cleansed cannot merit heaven, cannot sustain justification. Our life has nothing whatsoever to do with entering heaven, as we are GLORIFIED and made sinless BEFORE we stand before the judgement throne, and thus our own works have NOTHING to do with gaining entrance into heaven but rewards in heaven (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem with your supposition is that none of the verses which I am referring even mentions Justificaton. It is clear in each of the passages that it is referring to sins which is acted upon by the believer in disobedience to God. Therefore, you have brought Justification into the discussion erroneously bringing up another topic all together out of the context of the discussion and the scripture verses quoted. Therefore, it is not I nor Catholics who have confused Justification with Sanctification but rather you have.
The problem as I see it by applying the verses you have quoted as you did, is absolve the believer of any responsibility for any of their actions. I believe the scriptures as they are written that God is the author and finisher of our faith as long as we remain faithful to him. To say, as you have, that it is God's responsibility alone to keep you from sin is to lay the blame for all your sins committed as a believer (not prior to faith) directly on God. Thus in short you can say, applying the verses as you have, "Since, God is in charge of my faith the fact that I have committed adultery is not my fault rather that is just an area of Sanctification which God hasn't dealt with yet in my life. And until He does I won't be able to stop". Ultimately, this thinking lays at the feet of God blame for your sins committed as a believer.
Consider Jesus teaching: "Remain in me, as I remain in you...anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned." John 15:4;6

God fully accepts us in Jesus the ,oment that we received him thru faith, and its not in the rite of water Baptitism that our sins are remiited before God, but when we receive jesus thru faith alone, and God himself declares that we have been then justified, saved, sealed with.by the Spirit, and we can do NOTHING after that to get any more justified/saved, as we are already complete in Him!

jesus died to cover and pay for all the sins that i woudl ever commit, so its not as rome states, that water baptism washes us from original Sin, faith in Jesus gets all sins up until then remitted, but we need to co operate with the sacramnts in order to make sure that we will merit eternal life after we die...

That is 100% opposite of pauline theology regarding salvation...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If I had limited my words to merely justification you would have a point. However, I did not limit it to justification. I said Rome confuses justification with SANCTIFICATION and your passages do relate to sanctification, and you do draw conclusions that confuse sanctification passages with justification as final salvation is obtained by justification which is limited to the Person of Christ and works performed in HIS BODY during HIS LIFE. Whereas, sanctification is about works performed in OUR BODY in OUR LIFE.




You are assuming that the only application of these scriptures are to TRUE believers when in fact, effectual perseverance in saving faith (Heb. 12:2) is proof a true believer. Whereas, false professors routinely fail this criteria, which in fact is designed to reveal the true from the false.

You completely pass over John 6:38-39 and my interpretative remarks, why? Why can't you deal with that clear explicit text which speficically deals with the issue whether TRUE believers can be lost???????





You are free to believe what you like, but you are not free to choose what is factual and what is not. He is not only the author and finisher but he is also the sustainer of that faith (Philip. 1:6) as again John 6:37-39 prove explicitly and clearly.




I said no such thing. I NEVER said God keeps you from sin! NEVER! Those are your words and not mine. However, sin is not the issue, as you are no more able to overcome sin after salvation as you were before salvation and the proof is that you do in fact sin. So keeping us from sinning is not the issue. Justification does not keep us from sinning. Sanctification does not keep us from sinning. You will sin every single day you live until the day you die. Our justification is not based upon anything we do or don't do, but on what Christ did in HIS OWN BODY and in HIS OWN LIFE. That is what obtains heaven for us, and the only thing that can obtain heaven is a SINLESS LIFE. A sinful life, even when being daily cleansed cannot merit heaven, cannot sustain justification. Our life has nothing whatsoever to do with entering heaven, as we are GLORIFIED and made sinless BEFORE we stand before the judgement throne, and thus our own works have NOTHING to do with gaining entrance into heaven but rewards in heaven (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

The fact is I still have a point because Justification is still outside the context of this discussion. Sanctification, is more closely related. However, all you have done is muddy the waters further by commenting as you have in and out of context. You assert the passages I quoted have to do with Justification. They do not which should be evident to you and other readers of the text by the simple fact Justification isn't mentioned in any of the text I quoted. It is under the purview of Sanctification and as my question brings up
Does God forgive unrepentant wilful sin by his elect? Clearly, from the scripture passages I mentioned and Paul's exhortation to several churches we conclude that these sins are to be avoided and brings God's wrath even upon believers. What does Jesus himself say to the church at Ephesus? "Repent, and do the works you did at first...To every one who conquers, I will give permission to eat from the tree of life that is in the paradise of God."Rev 2:5;7 Also to the church in Smyrna "Remain faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life." Rev 2:10 Jesus is pretty consistent before and after his Crucifixion. Repent of your sins and remain in him. Even the book of Hebrews from which you quote puts into context the passage you mention and I as said I believe it in the way it was meant. But you can't take Hebrews 12:2 in isolation from the rest if the book especially when it says previously in chapter 5 and 6 "we have much to say that is hard to explain since you have become dull in understanding...but solid food is for the mature for those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish good from evil. Therefore let us go on to perfection leaving behind the basic teaching about Christ...for it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened...ground that drinks up the rain falling on it repeatedly and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles it is worthless and on the verge of being cursed; it's end is to be burned over...and we want each one of you to show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope to the very end, so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." Therefore we must remain in Jesus avoid sin and persevere as chapter 12 tells us "let us also lay aside every weight and sin that clings so closely, and run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the Pioneer and Perfecter of our faith." Though Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith doesn't preclude us from purposely remaining in him. Though you claim I did he deal specifically with the verse you quoted I actually did. I said and am saying again that I believe that verse in the sense it was meant. I disagree with your assessment of that passage. Jesus indeed does not drive away those who come to him and all those who come to him indeed the father has given him. The passage ( which is in the bread of life discourse) does not indicate one way or another about remaining in Jesus. Jesus has spoken to that subject later in John 8:31 and 34 "if you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples...Jesus answered them 'Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits a sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place forever. So if the son makes you free, you will be free indeed.'" Again in chat 15 Jesus says "abide in me as I abide in you...whoever does not abide in me is thrown away"
And finally I said how you use the passage that God is the perfecter of our faith leads one to the conclusion that God is ultimately responsible for our sins committed as Christians. Read my post again and read your interpretation of that again and you will clearly see what I mean.

 

[DHK]

The fact is I still have a point because Justification is still outside the context of this discussion. Sanctification, is more closely related. However, all you have done is muddy the waters further by commenting as you have in and out of context. You assert the passages I quoted have to do with Justification. They do not which should be evident to you and other readers of the text by the simple fact Justification isn't mentioned in any of the text I quoted. It is under the purview of Sanctification and as my question brings up
Does God forgive unrepentant wilful sin by his elect?

Most Baptists can draw a distinction between justification and sanctification. But the Catholic can't--not because he is ignorant or unknowledgeable, but because his theology will not allow him to.

The Baptist believes in justifcation by faith and faith alone. There are no works involved. "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God." One does not add works into that verse.
Salvation is a gift which cannot be lost.
When one is justified it is a one time event when all his sins are forgiven--past, present and future. There is no need for a confessional. There is no such thing as a mortal sin. All of our sins are forgiven. The believer himself is a priest before God. He not only is justified when saved, he is sanctified (positionally) before God. And as he grows he will be sanctified more and more throughout his life. Sanctification is progressive. It never involves loss of salvation.

If one is the elect of God one must be treated as the elect of God. Either he is the elect of he is not the elect. Which is it? If he is of the elect then he will always be of the elect with his name written in the book of life. It will not be erased. There is no such thing as elect, and then non-elect; elect and then non-elect. Either he is or he isn't.
Either he is justified or he isn't.
Either he is sanctified or he isn't.

He doesn't lose his positon before God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Most Baptists can draw a distinction between justification and sanctification. But the Catholic can't--not because he is ignorant or unknowledgeable, but because his theology will not allow him to.

The Baptist believes in justifcation by faith and faith alone. There are no works involved. "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God." One does not add works into that verse.
Salvation is a gift which cannot be lost.
When one is justified it is a one time event when all his sins are forgiven--past, present and future. There is no need for a confessional. There is no such thing as a mortal sin. All of our sins are forgiven. The believer himself is a priest before God. He not only is justified when saved, he is sanctified (positionally) before God. And as he grows he will be sanctified more and more throughout his life. Sanctification is progressive. It never involves loss of salvation.

If one is the elect of God one must be treated as the elect of God. Either he is the elect of he is not the elect. Which is it? If he is of the elect then he will always be of the elect with his name written in the book of life. It will not be erased. There is no such thing as elect, and then non-elect; elect and then non-elect. Either he is or he isn't.
Either he is justified or he isn't.
Either he is sanctified or he isn't.

He doesn't lose his positon before God.

RCC theology clearly teaches that God cannot save a sinner unless he finds that sinner actually merits it!

 

[The Biblicist]

The fact is I still have a point because Justification is still outside the context of this discussion. Sanctification, is more closely related. However, all you have done is muddy the waters further by commenting as you have in and out of context. You assert the passages I quoted have to do with Justification. They do not which should be evident to you and other readers of the text by the simple fact Justification isn't mentioned in any of the text I quoted. It is under the purview of Sanctification and as my question brings up

Please reread what I said, because you missed it. I said these scripture have to do with sanctification not justification. However, YOUR APPLICATION of them has to do with justification, and that is precisely the point of your Roman CAtholic error! I also said, that true Christians persevere in saving faith because of God's sustaining grace as John 6:38-39 irrefutably and clearly states and thus those who fail demonstrate they were never true christians but only false professors.

Does God forgive unrepentant wilful sin by his elect?

In regard to justification their past, present and FUTURE sins have already been completely forgiven and removed forever and in that sense they are sanctified forever by the blood of Christ positionally (Heb. 10:10, 14; Rom. 4:6-8). In regard to progressive sanctification it is only the CONSCIOUSNESS of sin that is removed by repentance so that they can enjoy the PEACE OF GOD experientially as they already have PEACE WITH GOD positionally. So the answer is no! God's elect may die without receiving the peace OF God but that has nothing to do with obtaining heaven. It has only to do with their advance in progressive sanctification IN THIS LIFE. True believers do not confess their sins to be justified but to be sanctified and progressive sanctification has to do with their CONSCIOUS EXPERIENTIAL GROWTH in Christ.

Clearly, from the scripture passages I mentioned and Paul's exhortation to several churches we conclude that these sins are to be avoided and brings God's wrath even upon believers.

No! What it does do is separate true from false professors.

What does Jesus himself say to the cHurch at Ephesus? "Repent, and do the works you did at first...To every one who conquers, I will give permission to eat from the tree of life that is in the paradise of God."Rev 2:5;7 Also to the church in Smyrna "Remain faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life." Rev 2:10

Neither text has anything to do with obtaining SPIRITUAL life or POSITIONAL life by justification. For example, there are those "saved" in the new heaven and earth that DO NOT eat of the tree of life but are given only the "leaves" (Rev. 21:24; 22:2-3). The "crown" of life refers to the reward IN heaven for a victorious life by sanctification not obtaining spiritual life as that is already a past tense completed action for all true believers (Jn. 3:36; 5:25; etc.).

Even the book of Hebrews from which you quote puts into context the passage you mention and I as said I believe it in the way it was meant. But you can't take Hebrews 12:2 in isolation from the rest if the book especially when it says previously in chapter 5 and 6 "we have much to say that is hard to explain since you have become dull in understanding...but solid food is for the mature for those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish good from evil. Therefore let us go on to perfection leaving behind the basic teaching about Christ...for it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened...ground that drinks up the rain falling on it repeatedly and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles it is worthless and on the verge of being cursed; it's end is to be burned over...and we want each one of you to show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope to the very end, so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises."

You obviously do not understand this passage. He says it is "impossible" if they have fallen away to be restored to repentance. He uses the subjunctive mode and is considering what would happen if they could hypothetically fall way. They could not be restored. However, due to things that accompany salvation this cannot happen. Either one is good soil which will produce good fruit or one is bad soil which is reserved for fire, there is NO THIRD option in reality. His point is that true believers are in a stage of growth and they have not lost their salvation by receding in that growth as your very position would conclude but it is impossible "if" salvation were lost to be regained. Salvation cannot be lost because a good soil does not change over to a bad plot because of those things that accompany true salvation.

Therefore we must remain in Jesus avoid sin and persevere as chapter 12 tells us "let us also lay aside every weight and sin that clings so closely, and run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the Pioneer and Perfecter of our faith."

Obtaining justification is not winning a race, as justificaiton is GIVEN FREELY (Rom. 3:24) without works (Rom. 4:5-6). Progressive sanctification is running the race and what you win is not entrance into heaven but present blessings and a more glorious entrance with rewards.

Though Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith doesn't preclude us from purposely remaining in him.

You miss the point entirely! Our purposely remaining in him is due to the fact that he is the author and FINISHER of it - as that is his assignment by the Father as John 6:38-39 explicitly states in the clearest language possible. If TRUE believers fail to finish in faith it is due to Christ sinning against the Father's revealed will as HIS RESPONSIBILITY.

I disagree with your assessment of that passage. Jesus indeed does not drive away those who come to him and all those who come to him indeed the father has given him.

No, you disagree with the actual wording because the text says NOTHING about "drive away" but explicitly states that the Father's revealed will FOR THE SON is that the Son has the responsibility to PREVENT any "OF ALL" that are given to him by the Father from being "LOST." You must pervert, change, alter the wording of this text to support your interpretation.