Featured Atonement

The death of Jesus was a definite atonement for all of them God destined to get saved by it, correct?

 

No one is addressing Van's point here. Did God foresee the Elect or did they exist eternally in Christ before the foundation of the world? Calvinist are always dismissing non-Cal's position that God in His foreknowledge has foreseen those who would trust in Christ. Wouldn't Calvinist have to concede that God does indeed foresee individuals who He has not yet created, and also would know exactly the decisions they would make (if allowed to make any whatsoever), whether caused or allowed by God Himself??

 

It does NOT say....and who He did forsee he also did predestinate....it says
and who He did FOREKNOW He also did predestinate

 

Could you define the difference, maybe this would help.

 

JonC seems to say Calvinism does not believe God chose individuals before creation. But that is Calvinism. Simply saying "taint so" provides nothing.

And no one is saying God chose based on foreseeing faith. Rather, according to Calvinism, God chose the foreseen individuals without regard for any characteristic they might have, i.e. unconditional election.

The defense of Calvinism here is based on denying Calvinism doctrine.

So rather than endlessly evade the issue, lets return to the basic premise, God chose individuals before creation unconditionally. Thus, before creation, those individuals whether foreseen, foreknown, or existing in some way before God created them were elect and therefore no charge can be brought against them. But Titus 3:3 does just that.

That, folks, is the fly in the buttermilk.

 

Until those choen sinners came to faith in jesus though, they were enemies of God, under his wrath, children of disobedience, but God provided the means that they would be reconciled back to himself!

paul" While we were yet sinners, jesus died for us, godly for the ungodly', correct?

 

Arminians states that God foresaw all who would decide to place faith in jesus and get saved, but was based upon their free will acceptance

calvinism would state that God foreknew those sinners, in the sense was active in determing that they would get saved by him!

 

God is the beginning and the end, and there is nothing He doesn't see.
It isn't foresight, He is everpresent, it is nowsight.

Isa 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One
that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;
I dwell in the high and holy place,
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to revive the spirit of the humble,
and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

God dwells in eternity, from which vantage point, all of Time is visible, present, in front of Him

It doesn't say "I was alpha and I will be Omega", does it?

 

Thanks JonC, for actually addressing the issue. I was beginning to lose hope any Calvinist would engage.

1) God, according to Calvinism, elected people as individuals, before and not from, the foundation of the world.

2) If this Calvinism view was correct, then no charge could be brought against the elect. But scripture does bring that charge against individuals before coming to faith. Therefore, either the Calvinism view of Ephesians 1:4 is incorrect (which is my non-cal view) or my understanding of Romans 8:33 is incorrect.

3) Agreed, individual election, conditional or unconditional, would render the person justified before God, and therefore Titus 3:3 precludes individual election before God credits the person's faith as righteousness. We live without mercy, before we receive mercy.

4) JonC, you simply presented the verse but did not say why it does not mean what it says.

Again, Romans 8:33 precludes bringing the Titus 3:3 charges against the elect, therefore we were not elect when we were by nature children of wrath. Thus Calvinism's doctrine of individual election before the foundation of the world is what has been "taken out of context" and misconstrued. What Calvinism does is say they are right about Ephesians 1:4, and all these other scriptures do not mean what they say, including Romans 8:33, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, and so forth and so on.

 

God does not bring any charge again the elect in Titus 3:3 or Eph 2:1:3. These scriptures are just explaining what the elect were by nature. You will have to go to scripture that is dealing with the wicked to find charges made by God.

 

Here we have the typical, scripture does not mean what it says, defense. God does not bring any charge against the elect. How about all have fallen short of the glory of God. Just read Ephesians 2:1-3 folks.

Calvinism's view of Ephesians 1:4 requires all these other verses to be nullified.

 

Jer 31:3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore in loving kindness have I drawn thee. The Lord is not like man is, loving someone today and hating them tomorrow. If the Lord loves you, he has always loved you, and he always will love you. God cannot change. If God loves you, this love really means something. If he loves you, his Son bore your sins, and if he did bare your sins then He is the sin bearer, not you. Your sins cannot be two places at the same time. They cannot be on Jesus and you. They are either on Jesus or you. If they are on Jesus then there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, Rom 8:1 Who shall lay anything to the charge of Gods elect ?Rom8:33. God knows all things. God decreed all things. When we were yet unheard of, before time came into existence God saw his Son as a lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Rev 13:8

 

I fall short every day Van, what about you ?

 

Just your understanding of it needs to be nullified!

We hold that we are justified by the death of Jesus as a definite atonement for our sins, and yet we must also have a time in our lives when Jesus was received thru faith to get saved by God...

What can be clearer than that?