Based upon Him deciding to have the death of christ benefir them and save them, or else based upon him seeing they would place faith in jeus themselves though?
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Atonement
- Thread starter Rippon
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Based upon Him deciding to have the death of christ benefir them and save them, or else based upon him seeing they would place faith in jeus themselves though?
No need to apologize for presenting your view, shared with other Calvinists...
At the end of the day, you will say, Van you cannot be right because we have 400 years of very bright and godly scholars all saying Calvinism's view is right. But the fact is we also have 400 years where very bright and godly scholars have been saying Calvinism is wrong. JonC, what if both were right, in seeing the other side was wrong.
Personally, I think both sides are most likely wrong to some extent. I do not call myself a "Calvinist,"... maybe a "not quite Calvinist.":smilewinkgrin:
Just based on God. I think that there is the potential for both sides of the argument to shift to a focus that is centered on man rather than God.
No need to apologize for presenting your view, shared with other Calvinists. I do not (a real news flash) accept that a person can be chosen, elected individually, before creation, and not be considered elect until saved. That simply redefines the meaning of the word to fit Calvinism into the text.
If we change or add to the text, such as no charge can be brought against the elect, once they are saved, we are nullifying scripture, making it to no effect.
And again if we were simply comparing two verses, Romans 8:33 and Ephesians 1:4, you would seem to have a plausible view. But when we stack up a half dozen verses against your questionable view of Ephesians 1:4, you side loses plausibility.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth. Now could we have faith in the truth before we heard the gospel? Nope, faith comings from hearing. We can reconcile these two verses by observing Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate, rather than individual election. When God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He also chose corporately, those the Redeemer would redeem. Hence, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.
Now, with that view, all the verses fit together. When we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, we are placed in Christ, and thus no charge can be brought against God's elect.
Still not convinced, consider 1 Peter 2:9-10 where we lived without mercy, and were not a people, but then were a chosen people, and had obtained mercy.
Next how about James 2:5, where God chose those poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love him. So yet again we have God choosing individuals not before creation, but during their lives after are rich in faith and love God.
Need more, how about 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 with God choosing individuals to shame others living on earth. All these elections of individuals found in scripture are conditional and occur during the lifetime of the individual.
At the end of the day, you will say, Van you cannot be right because we have 400 years of very bright and godly scholars all saying Calvinism's view is right. But the fact is we also have 400 years where very bright and godly scholars have been saying Calvinism is wrong. JonC, what if both were right, in seeing the other side was wrong.
Excellent job! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
What a joke......:laugh::laugh::laugh:
What are the extremes that you seem to feel are within both systems then?
Perhaps you are what is called a 4 point calvinist then?
An over emphasis of doctrine on one hand and a denial on the other.
While I don't have a problem with the five points of Calvinism and really only an issue with one point of TULIP, Calvinism is not the measuring stick of my faith.
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How can biblical doctrine be over emphasized? That doesn't make any sense.
Doctrine is over emphasized when it is applied out of proportion or denies other biblical truths. For example, the anti-missions Calvinists held a position that was a misapplication resulting form an over emphasis of doctrine.
Are you referring to old school Baptists? If so, you better proove your point.
I was referring, specifically, to the Anti-mission Baptists in Tennessee (more specifically to R.B.C. Howell and the issues that he faced with their form of “Calvinism”). What I was speaking of was their view of predestination which made “missions” unbiblical in their eyes. It was just an example that one can take doctrine to unbiblical proportions (Rippon asked how doctrine could be over emphasized, and this is what I mean…not “over preaching” but exaggerated and misapplied).
But I had specifically said :"How can biblical doctrine be over emphasized?"
I didn't ask how doctrine can be distorted.
I suppose your point was adding "biblical" to it (I never said "biblical doctrine"...that was you)? Anyway, choose which ever wording you like, I take it you understand my point even if you disagree with my wording.
By "over-emphasizing" I do mean misapplying...or taking one truth found and (as Spurgeon says) saying "this is good for everything." Their conclusions were logical, and everything "fit," but they were ultimately unbiblical. Hopefully this clears up what I intended to convey. I'd hate to stay on this tangent too long, as it is certainly a departure from the topic. Another example would be taking passages regarding human responsibility to the point of Arminianism, or ignoring those passages all together.
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Calvinism's view of Ephesians 1:4 is not just wrong, it is obviously wrong. Thus the subject is avoided.
If we change or add to the text, such as no charge can be brought against the elect, once they are saved, we are nullifying scripture, making it to no effect.
And again if we were simply comparing two verses, Romans 8:33 and Ephesians 1:4, Calvinism would seem to have a plausible view. But when we stack up a half dozen verses against Calvinism's questionable view of Ephesians 1:4, the Calvinist side loses plausibility.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth. Now could we have faith in the truth before we heard the gospel? Nope, faith comings from hearing. We can reconcile these two verses by observing Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate, rather than individual election. When God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He also chose corporately, those the Redeemer would redeem. Hence, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.
Now, with that view, all the verses fit together. When we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, we are placed in Christ, and thus no charge can be brought against God's elect.
Still not convinced, consider 1 Peter 2:9-10 where we lived without mercy, and were not a people, but then were a chosen people, and had obtained mercy.
Next how about James 2:5, where God chose those poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love him. So yet again we have God choosing individuals not before creation, but during their lives after they are rich in faith and love God.
Need more, how about 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 with God choosing individuals to shame others living on earth. All these elections of individuals found in scripture are conditional and occur during the lifetime of the individual.
If we change or add to the text, such as no charge can be brought against the elect, once they are saved, we are nullifying scripture, making it to no effect.
And again if we were simply comparing two verses, Romans 8:33 and Ephesians 1:4, Calvinism would seem to have a plausible view. But when we stack up a half dozen verses against Calvinism's questionable view of Ephesians 1:4, the Calvinist side loses plausibility.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth. Now could we have faith in the truth before we heard the gospel? Nope, faith comings from hearing. We can reconcile these two verses by observing Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate, rather than individual election. When God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He also chose corporately, those the Redeemer would redeem. Hence, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.
Now, with that view, all the verses fit together. When we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, we are placed in Christ, and thus no charge can be brought against God's elect.
Still not convinced, consider 1 Peter 2:9-10 where we lived without mercy, and were not a people, but then were a chosen people, and had obtained mercy.
Next how about James 2:5, where God chose those poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love him. So yet again we have God choosing individuals not before creation, but during their lives after they are rich in faith and love God.
Need more, how about 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 with God choosing individuals to shame others living on earth. All these elections of individuals found in scripture are conditional and occur during the lifetime of the individual.
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Does any Calvinist have a rebuttal for Van which deals with his actual post?
If one actually reads the whole chapter of Eph 1 it reads against Calvinism's pov. Verse 13 specifically reads against Calvinism..."In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
You did not receive the Holy Spirit of promise to make you believe!!!!!!!!
Good one :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: I like it.......
Where did we get outr faith from to believe in jesus van?
How can someone spiritually dead respond by their own natures to Jesus?
God writes all those down in Book of Life before foundation of the World, as he dtermines all who go there and get saved, so if he records each one of us down by name, as it that not individual election?
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