Featured What does Galatians 3:27 mean?

By His Will being acted out in the life/death/resurrection of jesus Christ...

 

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

Because that is how we are saved.

There is only one way to be saved; one way to receive remission of sins.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.[/FONT]
--Your theology is in error.

First, these scriptures are pre-cross.
Second, the fire in Luke 3:16 probably refers to persecution.
Third, the other baptism is simply prophetic of the day of Pentecost. That "baptism" had not happened yet, and would not happen again. We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit at salvation.

John 7:38 does not speak of a baptism, but he does speak of "those that believe on him."

 

If you were saved by a man by you having called out to him when you were drowning, and he threw you a lifeline in having saved you, it is not an error to say the same thing the other way around that a man saved you when you had called out to him and he threw you a life line.

It is the same thing. That life line was what had saved you as you were saved by that lifeline.

You were saved by Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ has saved you.

What officiates this saving act? The remission of sins by believing in Him which is the same thing as He remits your sins for believing in Him and by Him, you receive the promise of the baptism with the Holy Ghost as the reception of the Holy Ghost is when we are "officially" saved.

The promises in the scriptures that are pre-cross are initiated when Christ has ascended and was no longer present with His disciples.

I honestly do not see how you got that.

There is the Refiner's fire.

Malachi 3:1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

I believe Luke 3:16's fire is the Refiner's fore of the Lord; and not pertaining to any persecution whatsoever.

Not every believer having received the Holy Ghost is also receiving persecution from Him at that moment and so it has to be the Refiner's fire.

I think you are saying that the offical baptism with the Holy Ghost for coming to & believing in Jesus Christ started to be received on the day of Pentecost and from that day forth for all new believers coming to and believing in Jesus Christ... then I agree as that was the day when His disciples were officially saved as that was the beginning of the day when that promise would be given thereafterwards.

Seeing how verse 39 was added to explain verse 38, I would have to disagree.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

You are making up doctrine as you go along. That is not what the Bible says and I have given you Scripture to back it up.

"He remits your sins for believing in him AND by Him you receive the promise of the baptism with the Holy Ghost as the reception of the Holy Ghost is when we are "officially saved."

My response: Garbage.
Salvation is not conditioned by anything.
It is not conditioned by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
There is no "salvation" and then a subsequent "official salvation." Garbage!
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
--It is that simple.

All scripture has historical context which cannot be ignored.

To refine means to purify. How are things purified?
1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
--During this season of persecution or suffering their faith would purified, just as gold is purified, tried with fire. That is what John is referring to.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
--Gold does not burn (neither silver or precious stones); they are only purified. This passage speaks of reward, but often reward comes through suffering. Lay your treasure up in heaven.

James and John in particular were told that they would receive a baptism of fire. In Acts 12 James received that baptism when he was beheaded.
Mark 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
Mark 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

The promise was:
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
--That is not the "baptism of the Spirit," it is the "coming of the Spirit, or the Comforter, that was promised to come. There is no "official baptism with the Holy Ghost." The Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost as prophesied. From that day forward, believers were indwelt with the Holy Spirit when they came to Christ.
Your differentiation of "saved" and "officially saved" is heresy.
Read Matthew 16:13-18.
Consider verse 17 especially:
Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Does a dead unregenerate man receive revelation from God the Father and declare that Jesus is Christ the Messiah?
No, the Apostles were saved at this point in time.

That is simply a prophesy of the Spirit coming on the Day of Pentecost and nothing more. Jesus tells them the same thing in Acts 1. He tells them to wait for the coming of the Spirit which will come not many days hence.
He tells them in verse 8
And you shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit shall come upon you...

The Holy Spirit would come on the Day of Pentecost after they saw Christ ascend into heaven. Jesus told them that many times.

 

So salvation is conditioned by something; by faith in Jesus Christ; aka by believing in Him. Which our believing in Him is a work of God the Father Himself, ( John 6:44 & Matthew 11:25-27 ) but enabling us to believe in Jesus Christ is how we have received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father by Jesus Christ Whom has saved us.

Context of that verse Luke 3:16 is best to adhere by. John the Baptist testified of what he baptized by which was water and then he testified of what Jesus Christ will be baptizing new believers by; the Holy Ghost & fire. The fire is not taking place at another time during the life of a believer when referring to that baptism that Jesus will baptize us by as the Holy Ghost and the fire as in the Refiner's fire goes hand in hand.

No. That passage speak of a certain day when God will judge every man according to what he has built on that foundation. Paul is not referring to a series of trials or tribulations by fire because this fire God is giving on that specific day on every man what his work shall be on that foundation.

This fire is different from the Refiner's fire given at our salvation, but nevertheless it is being given again by the Refiner. The Holy Spirit is the only promise that the Father specifically stated that a believer need not receive again, but God will judge His House at the pre tribulational rapture event.

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire

There is no denying that truth but that was not what John the Baptist was talking about in Luke 3:16. He did not say that to James & John only. John the Baptist was saying that to his large audience.

When I say official baptism with the Holy Ghost, it is to defer from the other two times that Jesus had given the Holy Ghost in Matthew 10th chapter & John 20th chapter as those two times were only temporary and not the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost that was to be given when Jesus was glorified.

Nope. They were not saved yet when He has not died on the cross for their sins yet nor has ascended yet for them to receive the promise from the Father which is the baptism with the Holy Ghost that Jesus has given at Pentecost when the disciples were officially saved.

He pointed it out to Nicodemus about how one is born again;

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

He pointed it out to His disciples about how and when believing in Him would save them.

John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Those two examples shows when & how believing in Him is when they are born again by receiving the promise from the Father.

So He has not paid for the penalty for their sins and He has not ascended for the promise of the Father to come while on earth with His disciples for them to be saved when they "believed" in Him.

Acts 1:1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The promise from the Father is that "official" baptism with the Holy Ghost when the disciples would be saved for believing in Jesus Christ on Pentecost.

 

Acts 22:6-16 (KJV): 6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. 11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. 12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Justification is by faith and water baptism is the appointed means of identifying with the death and resurrection of Christ. Paul’s sins were forgiven when he was baptised three days after his encounter with Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

The baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with individual salvation. The baptism in the Spirit is a DATED occurrence (Acts 1:4-5 "not many days hence") and a RESTRICTED LOCATED occurrence ("from Jerusalem"), but salvation and remission of sins PREDATED Pentecost (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2) and NEVER is dated or restricted to any location. There is NO COMMAND in Scripture to seek the baptism in the Spirit but there are plenty of commands to seek salvation - hence they are not the same or inseparable. Your theory demands another way of salvation after Pentecost which the Bible completely repudiates (Acts 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2; Gal. 1:8-9 with 3:5-8). Abraham could not be set forth as OUR EXAMPLE of justification by faith and faith in the gospel if baptism of any sort was essential but Abraham is set forth as the father of ALL WHO BELIEVE (Rom. 4:11, 16, 22-25; Gal. 3:5-6). You are inventing a new means of justification that Abraham could not possibly obtained and thus could not possibly be our example. Remember, justification is INCLUSIVE OF REMISSION OF SINS (Rom. 4:6-8).

The baptism in the Spirit is the common Old Testament authenticating act of God upon every new house of God during its dedication:

1. The Tabernacle - Ex. 40:35
2. The Temple - 2 Chron. 7:1-3
3. The Church - Acts 2:1-3

In each case it occurred but ONCE. The only exception to this is Acts 10 (Acts 11:15-16) where it was necessary to repeat it in order for the Jewish members in the church of Jerusalem to accept Gentiles into their membership. Note that the nearest reference point that Peter could point to for what happened at the house of Jerusalem was "AT the beginning" (Acts 11:16).

If your theory were correct he should have said "SINCE the beginning" as thousands were being saved between Pentecost and the house of Corneilius.

This new house of God was composed of water baptized believers (Mt. 3:11 "baptize you with water"). All who met on Pentecost already were individually indwelt by the Holy Spirit but on that day they were corporately indwelt as "the house of God." There is a difference between the individual body indwelt by the Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19) and the congregational body being indwelt by the Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16; 12:27). The baptism in the Spirit has to do with the corporate body of plural water baptized believers as a congregational body of Christ. They were already saved baptized believers which had been habitually assembling as a corporate congregational body with Christ from the baptism of John (Acts 1:21-22) as Christ entered "in" and "out" of that congregational body. Hence, they were not rebaptized in water on or after Pentecost but already had been baptized in water. Their commission to preach the gospel of repentance and remission of sins to others was FOLLOWED by water baptism and assembling the water baptized believers with them to teach them how to observe all things. The Great Commission order is first believe the gospel through which is remission of sins, then baptize them in water, then teach them.


As in the case of all EXTERNAL ordinances from Genesis 4 to the present, they are but a "shadow" (Heb. 11:1; Col. 2:16) but not the real image that casts the shadow and as such NEVER CAN TAKE AWAY SINS LITERALLY (Heb. 11:4; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 4:9-11). A "shadow" is a LIKENESS without the real substance. It LOOKS LIKE (figure) the real but is not the real. What really removes sins is faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 10:43). Acts 10:43 refers to the time between Genesis and Jesus proving that all the external divine rites between Genesis and Jesus NEVER literally removed sin at all, but what literally removed sin was faith in Christ.

Note the very first external ordinance or the sacrifice offered by Abel did not literally save him or remit his sins but the author of Hebrews says that his offering only provided a "witness" that he was righteous already before offering that sacrifice:

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. - Heb. 11:4

His offering did not "obtain righteousness" or "obtain remission of sins" but "obtained WITNESS that he WAS righteous". Likewise, baptism does not obtain remission of sins literally, or obtain righteousness literally but rather obtains WITNESS that the believer already has sin remitted and thus is already righteous.

Abel is said by Christ to be the first prophet and Peter says that "ALL THE PROPHETS GIVE WITNESS that whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIS NAME shall receive remission of sins." - Acts 10:43

 

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

The problem with that reference is that you see the washing away of Paul's sins by water baptism, and I see the washing away of Paul's sins by calling on the name of the Lord.

It is consistent with Peter's message of that call to the Jews on the day of Pentecost and to the Gentiles in Acts 10th chapter.

 

Trevor and Hark,

Please explain to me how Abraham can be a representative of YOUR VIEW of justification (remission of sins/imputed rightousness)?

Please explain to me how Abraham can be the representative of "ALL WHO BELIEVE" meaning those who preceded Pentecost (as Abraham obviously did) and those who follow Pentecost?

Rom. 4:11....that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also......Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.......23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.:


Gal. 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


Please explain how "ALL THE PROPHETS GIVE WITNESS" that remission of sins did not come through obedience to external divine rites but through "believing in his name" - Acts 10:43 AS ILLUSTRATED IN ABEL (Heb. 11:4) AND ABRAHAM (Rom. 4:11,16,22-25; Gal. 3:6-7) and how YOUR GOSPEL of remission demands the very opposite without demanding two different ways of salvation when the Scriptures deny there has ever been any other way of salvation (Acts 4:12; Heb. 4:2; Jn. 14:6; Gal. 1:8-9 with Gal. 3:6-7)???

 

The baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ has everything to do with an individual's salvation, but the commandment to remain in Jerusalem was for another purpose to fulfill after His disciples had gotten saved so as to testify of Jesus as their Saviour to the Jews from many nations.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Note this was said before Jesus had ascended and yet the discipls were just sitting around, hardly doing any outreach until that promise had come.

The fact that after they were saved, they became witnesses to many nations and that "great commission" that every evangelical hype up about in regards to Matthew 28:19 was actually fulfilled on the day of Pentecost as it was a personal commandment to His disciples to fulfill in their lifetimes.

But yes, we as believers are to be led by the Lord in spreading the gopel still, but the disciples did as Jesus had commanded which was why He had told them to wait in Jerusalem as it was the ample opportunity to win converts and to make disciples of new believers to send back home to their native lands.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

So the disciples were not saved yet otherwise they would have been out there preaching the gospel before Pentecost; not afterwards.

If they are not the same, then they are separable is what I think you mean, but I disagree.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Most holy rollers ignore the context of the message and just focus on the punchline of verse 13 as if implying one can ask for the Holy Spirit again and again and again, which is not true.

This reception of the Holy Spirit is referring to the time of our salvation for knocking at the door of Jesus Christ. Plus, this promise is a one time event because to receive the Holy Spirit again is to make the Father look evil as if He did not give you the Holy Spirit the first time as promised for knocking at the door of Jesus Christ.

So it is important to recognize the promise from the Father is about the permnant indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation, because "holy rollers" are taking every supernatural experience of these seducing spirits coming over them as a sign that they can receive the Holy Spirit again and again and again; and the irony is that in spite of Luke 11:13, they are asking the Holy Spirit directly Himself in coming to fall on them and not the Father as that reference in context is testifying of.

So those that oppose my stand should reconsider with His help as to the truth of this matter as it involves defending the faith in Jesus Christ agaist apostate movements of seducing spirits which they deem to be the Holy Spirit when they are not.

Abraham was not saved yet because Jesus had not died yet, nor risen, nor ascended in being the firstfruits of the resurrection. Abraham had to wait with other OT saints and that thief from the cross in "Paradise" aka "Abraham's bosom" which was located across the great chasm separating them from hell before Jesus had descended to preach to them in prison and to lead the captie from captivity upon His resurrection where after He has ascended, Paradise and those formerly guests in it are now in Heaven awaiting to inherit the incorruptible and the attendance to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

No man has gone up to Heaven yet until Jesus, our Passover Lamb, led the way for us. No one was saved yet till He was in His Father's mansion to prepare a place for us; hence the seal of adoption in making us citizens of light in the kingdom of His Son.

Water baptism is not conditional with baptism with the Holy Spirit. Once He has been received, there is no receiving of Him again. No exception.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Peter was talking and referring to the day of Pentecost when he was saved. The fact that he connected that event with when the Gentiles were saved signify when Peter was saved on that day of Pentecost in having received the Holy Spirit as they had done and they spoke in tongues too in testifying as a sign to all around them that God has saved them too in like manner.

If referring to everyone else inbetween those two events, sure, but he was making a point in how the gospel has been given now to the Gentiles just as the gospel was first given to the believing Jews at Pentecost. There was no need to refer to any event inbetween when announcing the "first time".

No, they were not individually & permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit to be considered saved as that promise was to be given by the Father when Jesus was no longer present with them, and that happened on the day of Pentecost. Jesus giving the Holy Spirit before Pentecost was temporary as it was in Matthew 10th chapter when Judas Iscariot had received Him ( and he was not a believer ).

To be continued ... God be willing.....

 

Sorry, brother, but there is no other reception of the Holy Spirit again even corporately. Such a teaching would strengthen the "holy rollers" in their apostasy. BTW, 1 Corinthians 3:16 is referring to individual believer in how they will be judged by what they have done to their own body. Not every believer will follow a false teaching in that body of believers and so the whole church is not going to get destroyed. Example is teh church at Thyatira in Revelatiosn 2nd chapter.

Do you agree with every Baptist in this forum? Are you condemning yourself by that teaching for having fellowship here even though you do not follow a certain false teaching by another Baptist in this forum? Are you risking being destroyed for being a part of this body of believers even though you do not accept nor follow a false teaching by a fellow Baptist? No, of course not.

Then why believe God would destroy a whole church when not every member has that errant doctrine?

Now as for 1 Corinthians 12:27, it is hardly a verse signifying that there is another reception of the Holy Spirit in a corporate manner. When individual believers have the Holy Spirit already in them, then when they come together with other believers, there is no need to receive the Holy Spirit corporately.

Nope. There is no teaching that water baptism is necessary for joining a church. It is an ordinance for new believers to do in joining an assembly after salvation.

Since you do not water baptised visiting missionaries and guest speakers that come to your church for the first time, then you certainly do not need to water baptised a new member that has been a christian in another Baptist church or from another denomenation unless they had never been baptised, and they are asking for it.

No. The baptism of John has nothing to do with it and the water baptism in Jesus's name after John the Baptist's were not on believers that were saved yet when Christ has not died, risen, and ascended for them to be citizens above.

His disciples baptized in Jesus's name... and those people were not saved yet either.

John 4:1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

This is why we see references to the disciples of John the Baptists' and the disciples of Jesus Christ, but not every disciple of His believed in Him, and the ones that did, were not saved yet.

The reason why Jesus did not baptize any one yet is because His time to be baptizing believers with the Holy Ghost upon their salvation has not come yet.

Don't confuse John the Baptist's water baptism with the gospel as they cannot be the same when the remission of sins has to come by believing in Him only as the promise of the Father cannot come until He was no longer present with them.

Which is why Paul made it a point to preach the gospel and not make it a point to water baptize.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Fruitful disciples need to be open to pruning if they expect to bear more fruit.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Otherwise, you will have a hard time convincing "holy rollers" that the reception of the Holy Spirit corporately is not in relation to their apostate movements of the "Spirit" where believers are falling down in confusion.

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

There is no other drink of the Holy Spirit but one drink to be baptized into the body and that happened at our salvation.

I see you had added more to your last edit... to be continued. God be willing..

 

Wouldn't this point prove exclusively that water baptism is not necessary for salvation and that a believer can enter into Heaven without it?

Imagine a sinner waiting till the last second to call on the name of the Lord to save him when death was about to come upon him; I believe He is able to have him enter Heaven without fulfilling the ordinance of water baptism.

 

That is not what the scriptures clearly state. Acts 1:4-5 commands them to wait in Jerusalem FOR THE PROMISE predicted by John the Baptist. You are simply repudiating the explicit statement of scripture because it contradicts your false doctrine.

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Your doctrine is false and the proof is that you MUST contradict plain clear scripture to support your false interpetation!!!

Another absolutely false teaching by you. Jesus told them their names WERE ALREADY IN THE BOOK OF LIFE IN HEAVEN and was a PRESENT cause for rejoicing more than casting out devils which they also were PRESENTLY doing:

Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

You are calling Paul a liar because Paul emphatically states that Abraham WAS not only justified but justified BEFORE he was circumcised, and I quote:

Rom. 4:9 ¶ Cometh this blessedness [the blessing of remitted sin and imputed righteousness - justification in verses 6-8] then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This "blessedness" by context is Justification by faith (vv. 5-6) wherein remission of sins and imputed righeousness is received (vv. 6-8). Do you understand there is no such thing as "justification" without remission of sins and imputed righteousness? Romans 4:1 tells you that ABraham WAS justified and Romans 4:9-12 tells you WHEN Abraham was justified and it was BEFORE he was circumcised. So you denial of his justification is false!


Your myth about the pre-cross saints waiting in some holding place in hades is simply that, a myth, not based upon correctly interpreting the word of God. Abraham's bosom was the Jewish description of going to heaven to be with Abraham the Father of their nation. Only the rich man lifted up his eyes in "hades" not Lazerus. He had to "lift up" his eyes because hell is always referrred to as DOWN and heaven is always referred to as UP and Psalm 119 clearly states that and mentions NO THIRD ALTERNATIVE and a great gulf exists between HEAVEN and HELL. The passage in Ephesians 4 about Christ descending and ascending and granting gifts is taken from the Old Testament text where Barak took what held Israel in "captivity" (their enemies) and took that "captive." In other words, Christ conquered the enemies of God's people (sin, death and hell) by his death burial and resurrection.

Again YOUR UNINSPIRED OPINION versus the clear explicit Word of God. The subjects that John the Baptist made the promise unto were all WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS - no exceptions. The persons on the day of Pentecost were ALL WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS - no exceptions. Can you read Matthew 3:11 and Acts 2:1-3 and find ANY EXCEPTIONS?????? Try it?

Are you serious???????? Are you telling us that these believers in the gospel Jesus and John preached (Jn. 3:16, 36) whom Jesus said already had their names written in heaven and the cause of PRESENT joy and already had the Holy Spirit WITH THEM, and already baptized in water, and already casting out demons and performing miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, and already called and placed in the office of apostle and already commissioned to Israel and to the whole world were lost people???? Jesus told Peter that the heavenly Father had already revealed the saving truth to Peter (Mt. 16:16-17) and this kind of faith already posses eternal life (Jn. 3:16; 5:24).

You are teaching "another gospel" and a false gospel other than what Jesus or Paul preached (Acts 26:22-23) and other than what all the prophets preached (Acts 10:43) and other than what Jesus preached (Jn. 5:24) as Jesus already knew and recognized true believers among his disciples (Jn. 6:64-65) and thus who were lost and who were already saved. Your gospel makes Christ's words foolish in John 6:64-70.

 

What in the world do you think we have been trying to prove????? No external ordinance before or after the cross literally saves, but is only a witness of salvation already in possession! NO BAPTISM SAVES! The ONLY baptism commanded in the Great Commission unto the end of the world is WATER BAPTISM as the baptism in the Great Commission is not administered by God but by "ye" to "them." Ephesians 4:6 was written AFTER Pentecost and the fulfillment of the baptism in the Spirit and AFTER Acts 10. These were HISTORICALLY fulfilled promises but water baptism continues to the end of the age, so there is now but "ONE" baptism and it is the baptism in the Great Commission. NO BAPTISM saves. That is why there is NO COMMAND IN SCRIPTURE to seek any kind of baptism for literal salvation and remission of sins.

 

You are only affirming what I have been saying that salvation takes place upon the reception of the Holy Ghost as promised from the Father as what John the Baptist had predicted did not occur on His disciples yet for them to be saved until Pentecost.

As for the commandment to wait in Jerusalem as referring to the great commission; Matthew 28:18-20 was also a part of His saying before He had ascended. Combine the two and notice the event that is Pentecost of devout men and Jews from all nations of the earth, then may you see the main reason by His grace & by His help why He had told them to wait IN Jerusalem, and not just for the promise of the baptsm with the Holy Ghost.

By this application of yours, you have a problem, because the event in Luke 10th chapter is the same event in Matthew 10th chapter, and Judas Iscariot was among them; whom was not a believer, and so how you apply that as meaning salvation is contrary.

In the OT, it was possible for having the Holy Spirit taken from you.

Psalm 51:11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

In the NT, the Holy Spirit cannot be removed.

So even though Jesus referred to their names being written in heaven, it is not the same as having their names written in the book of life. The names written in heaven can be removed; but names in the Book of Life cannot.

How can I say this? Due to the prophesy for His words in His prayer to be true.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

So after He had come to the Father, no one can be lost. Note the prayer for His disciples including all those that would come to Him in believing in Him which refers to the promise from the Father of Him dwelling in them when He was no longer physically with them and with the future believers.

John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

Abraham's justification saved him from hell, but not quite in Heaven yet.

I believe you should reread that parable from Jesus Himself again : Luke 16:19-31

But then again, other truths in scripture needs to be brought into play to see this truth of what Jesus is saying in that parable.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

No one that has died before His ascension has entered Heaven yet.

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No man has seen God the Father yet, save the Son, Jesus, Whom had come down from Heaven.

Jesus said this to the thief....

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So where did Jesus go after He had died?

Revelations 1:18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

What for? To preach to those OT saints in prison in Abraham's bosom beneathe the earth but not in hell that were sometimes disobedient because only He can bring them to God by His death.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient,...

This is what had happened after His resurrection...

Matthew 27: 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And so when He ascended, He brought those saints & Paradise to God.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Paradise aka Abraham's bosom is now located in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Otherwise, you have a problem because the thief was with Him in Paradise that day and He had not risen yet. So for Jesus words to be true about how one is saved and brought to God by Him leading the way into Heaven to prepare a place for us, then Paradise aka Abraham's bosom was beneathe the earth but yet above hell divided by a great gulf.

Jesus cannot get the keys to hell and death unless He had descended first.

Acts 19:1-7 has Paul coming across certain disciples but did not know what kind. When they did not know about the Holy Ghost, he had inquired of what water baptism they were under. John the Baptist's. So then Paul had to tell them about Jesus Christ being the One that John the Baptist was talking about. Then they believed, got water baptised in Jesus's name and received the Holy Ghost.

So the water baptism of John the Baptist's is not affiliated with the gospel. It served as a precedent in preparing the way for the Lord whereas John the Baptist's water baptism of repentance for the remission of sin was replaced by the gospel of believing in Him for the remission of sins as the gospel comes with the promise of the Father of the baptism with the Holy Ghost by Jesus Christ for our salvation which is not promised in the water baptism of John the Baptist's.

Again, names written in heaven is not the same thing as names written in the Book of Life since Judas Iscariot was among them; and thus the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was temporary and not the promise that comes with our salvation after Jesus had ascended.

Judas Iscariot was not a believer and yet had that tenprrary infilling of the Holy Ghost whose name was also written in heaven for the prophesy to be fulfilled of him being "lost". Judas Iscariot's name was never written in the Book of Life nor had received the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost from the Father when Jesus had not ascended yet to prepare a place for all believers received from Pentecost and onward.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So for Judas Iscariot to be lost and for His words to be true above in John 6:39, none of the disciples were saved yet until Pentecost.

 

And yet you keep equating John the Baptist's water baptism which was for the remission fo sins which proves his water baptism is not affiliated with the gospel baptism in Jesus's name.

And the baptism with the Holy Ghost as promised from the Father for our salvation was based on the conditiuon when Jesus was no longer present and has gone to the Father to prepare a place for us. John 14th chapter. He told the disciples this and they knew that Pentecost was when they were saved after having received the promise as the Gentiles did when they had gotten saved in Acts 10th chapter.

 

I hope God is peradventuring to increase my brothers & sisters in the knowledge of Him, but as it is, if any still disagree with where Paradise "was" located at the time before and at Jesus crucifixion, then consider this...

John 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This was said after His resurrection and yet He had told that thief before His death....

Luke 23:43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So where was Paradise if Jesus had not gone yet to the Father in Heaven?

Therefore the OT saints were justified by faith enough to wait in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise but not enough where Jesus by His death was needed to bring them to God.

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The faith of the OT saints could not be realized yet till Jesus had died on the cross as His resurrection brought about their resurrection which is needed before He can bring them to God along with the rest of Paradise at His ascension.

 

I am affirming no such heresy! Baptized believers were the object of this baptism. They already had the Holy Spirit with them as individuals but this is as the institutional house of God - the church.

Paul clearly says that it is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation and the gospel has been preached since the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8; Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; 11:4, etc.). You are preaching "another gospel"!

You have the problem in understanding proper hemeneutics. He is speaking to the whole group. However, when he deals with them individually and specifically as in John 6:64-70 he clearly separates Judas and some others from the bulk of His disciples and says they were never true believer. When you stoop to pitting scripture against scripture you know you understand neither texts.

You are simply ignorant of all facets of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer. The truth is that the "indwelling" presence cannot be taken from a true believer irregardless when the lived. However, the manifest presence, power and peace of the Holy Spirit can be taken away irregardless of when a believer lives. He comes "upon" those in the New Testament also (Acts 8:14) and can leave them in the same sense he comes upon them (power, gifts, equipping, etc.). David is specfically speaking of the "joy" of his salvation which the Holy Spirit provides in obedience and which all Christians lose in disobedience and time of chastening.

Again, you are preaching "another gospel" that can be lost and saved. Either you are preaching "another gospel" prior to Pentecost that can be lost or saved OR you are denying anyone prior to Pentecost could be saved at all.

Judas was a "devil" from the beginning and Jesus knew it (Jn. 6:64-70). He was chosen not to salvation but as the "son of perdition" just as there are such today (2 Pet. 2:1).