Featured What happens to those who never hear abut Christ?

As usual you put on your blinders and can't see the forest for the trees.
In post #48 I answered the OP, the title of the thread with a clear and thorough response. I made a passing reference to Calvinism. It was not part of my general response.
Why not try and respond to the post. Be honest this time.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2157483&postcount=48

 

The blind leading the blind. I see you blindly following Rippon but I do not see any intelligent answer to my post. Where is it?
Here is the link:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2157483&postcount=48

Try again.

 

You have made three posts in this thread with passing negative references to Calvinism.

Why should I respond to your late (#48 post) when you haven't even dealt with mine (#2 post)?

There has been no dishonesty in any of my posts here. But your integrity has failed you on numerous occasions --especially with regard to Church History.

 

I am not a Calvinist. I really don't care if your feelings are hurt. This is a debate forum. If you don't like it go to the fellowship forum and talk about the weather.

I laid out a response to the OP. That is all I was interested in doing. I am not interested in yours.

This is theology, not about church history. Your view of church history is also colored by your view of Calvin. You are not being honest there either.

 

It is about your hypocrisy DHK. You say this thread is not about Calvinism, but you had to bad mouth it numerous times.

I know about your double-standard. You do a drive-by post 43 denigrating my #2 post with no specifics. Then, though bothering to quote mine in full advertise your all-important number 48 post.

I specialize in facts --you are an expert in inventing things and borrowing things from others of like-mindedness.

I am completely honest.

 

Then ignore it; don't respond.

You are wrong. I read the thread, the entire thread. Then I went back to the OP, and answered it. I don't consider you "special." Why should you consider your feelings hurt because I missed your post. I responded to the OP!

My post was not invented. Again, I responded to the OP.

 

DHK

I started to answer your post in post 49...till I saw the profane comment about the biblical teaching of election.....I will resume now as you have requested.

If God has done all that He could as you suggest...no one else will be saved.

That would be like a heart surgeon who opens up the patient needing a heart transplant.....who then hands the scapel to the patient and says...I have done all that I can....the rest is up to you:thumbs:

yes

If you are speaking of the justified elect in Romans 5...yes...that is the us.

Having already accomplished redemption He seeks and saves that which was lost...sending the Spirit to convict them of sin and work repentance in faith in them by giving the new heart of ezk36...so they willingly repent and believe the gospel by saving faith. In the words of Jonah...salvation is of the Lord.

yes He paid in full the price for All the father gave to Him...no more, no less-

It paid for all it was designed to pay for.It was an exact payment.

This is not biblical language at all.

In eph 1 the biblical language is...we are made accepted in the beloved;
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That being the case- there will be nobody in hell who desired Jesus on God's terms

God has never planned to save all...or all would be saved.He does not fail ever.

Now it is clear why you do not understand> I do not see Nicodemus using this language speaking to the Lord. he did not understand, but he asked a respectful question.

yes..praise the Lord it is. The bible has names for those who receive it...the sheep, wheat, the elect, those given by the Father to the Son, the seed of Abraham:thumbs:

We have no right to challenge God.

Correct...so it is probably not a good idea to profane revealed truth as you have done:thumbs:

.

agreed...

I believe it is possible that all we speak to will believe.God has not revealed who He has chosen...so we can speak to all sinners with an expectant hope that The Spirit will quicken them:thumbs:

The results belong to God.....

9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

He did not tell Paul who...just that he had much people in this city.

agreed

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He has reasons for sure. Holy reasons. Those are the secret things.

Correct!

yes

Yes...Cals do not question that...we believe it completely.

 

Hmmm...and to carry this analogy further--Did the heart surgeon put out a general call, and then an effective call for people with defective hearts to come to him to have life saving surgery?

Or did the patient realize his dire condition and seek out a surgeon?

Interesting...

 

While only a human analogy....to be more accurate as you would like to press it...the patient dies on the operating table as the surgeon operates, then the surgeon hands him the scapel as tells him...he has done all he can the rest is up to him.....

 

I see that your answers don't address my questions and are nonsensical. No need to continue...

 

Rippon

Many have noticed this pattern:thumbs:

:thumbs: yes

this happens many times also:thumbs:

That is why he does not wish to engage as you asked him to.
I will say that he often will give extended discussions more so then most.
it is as if the others stand back and hide behind him and let him attempt to dispute the truth.
That being said..the M.O. is when he gets in deep water..he resorts to the
ad hominem or says it is off topic, or closes the thread.

 

Thank you Icon, I appreciate it.

That is not true. Would you suggest that God's creation was imperfect? that he created Adam and Eve with some imperfection so that they would not obey him? To suggest such is absurd. God did all that He could to create a perfect world for them so that they could live with Him in perfect harmony. But they chose to rebel instead. Why would you blame God for that?

The patient was sick.
Adam and Eve were not sick. God did all he could for two individuals that had perfect spiritual and physical health. They didn't have to heal themselves. Yet they rebelled anyway.

This is where you tempt me to throw in: "Don't give me that Calvinist garbage in your answer."
The fact is that Christ died for the whole world (John 3:16). This truth is repeated so often throughout the Bible I can't count all the times. It is a universal truth. He didn't die for a select few--saving some and damning others. That is what I call a "heresy" in and of itself. I believe in election, but not that way.

The question I posed to you is: "What more could He have done?"
The above is your answer--a non-answer. By sending his Son and paying the ultimate cost in shedding his precious blood for ALL mankind there is nothing more that Christ could have done.
"The more that he could have done" is your Calvinistic idea that he could have sent the gift of repentance and the so-called gift of faith, spiritual gifts to dead and unregenerate lost people. But he doesn't do that. After receiving the light of the gospel they have an obligation to choose that light.
What more could he have done. The penalty was paid. The victory was won. The gift is offered. One must simply receive. Yes, salvation is of the Lord.

He first draws all men. "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw ALL men unto myself."

And he is the propitiation for our sins, not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world. An exact payment, sufficient for all.

Of course it is Biblical. You just quoted one passage (written to and about believers) to the exclusion of all others.
See: John 1:12 "to as many as received him.
As well as Acts 10:43 and 16:31

God is not willing that any should perish.
God's will is that all should be saved.

Nicodemus never spoke about Calvinism and neither Jesus nor Nicodemus discussed it and all of its fallacies.

I said: Salvation is for all who believe it. You read into that: "Salvation is for 'the elect,'" and then pretend to agree. That is as far from what I said as one can get. It is the opposite of John 3:16, where Christ said he died for the sins of the "whole world," and not just the elect. You have a hard time with that oft quoted text unless you tear it apart, don't you?

Every time you interpret these scriptures in the light of the man called Calvin you are challenging God.
I call a spade a spade. Calvin is not inspired.

After reading the rest of your answers I see we are in basic agreement. For that I am grateful.

 

DHK

DHK ...not to be topped by Van...begins to construct another Monster strawman:thumbs: lets look once again

No...of course I would not. More importantly I have never said any such thing.
You pulled this idea out of your imagination....lets continue to see where this could possibly lead to???

No...I was not speaking of Adam and Eve at all! We were speaking about the cross...was it actual or potential? I see...you cannot respond so you pull this whole scenario out of your fruitful imagination...hoping you can answer questions no one is asking:laugh:

I agree...so why did you do it DHK?...You can just back out and say...sorry, my theology is defective at this point and I have no valid response....it is ok, you tried. But no...instead you inflict this absurdity on us:thumbs:

I do not blame God for anything DHK....why do you say such a thing? anyone can read and see you have invented this whole foolish scenario.

No one is talking about Adam and Eve...are you okay?

Okay...now we can see what the problem is...lol....it is your anti cal agenda and hatred of the truth that is behind this imaginary scenario...

true to your M.O......you cannot answer what was actually being discussed so you resort to inventing a position that you think you can respond to{and you fail at that also,lol].

Then you resort to half verses following the error that Baptist 4 life does...

Lunch break is over...so I will answer the rest in awhile...stay tuned.

 

It is not a strawman; it is an analogy, and a very good one. God made Adam and Eve perfect. You won't and can't disagree with that, so you won't dare to argue the point.
But somehow you suggest that God's infinite and ultimate sacrifice on the cross for all mankind was insufficient, inadequate, and imperfect displaying the qualities of an imperfect God. And that is shameful.
That is why I took you down the road of Adam and Eve. It shows how that when they sinned God didn't abandon them on the operating table. He still called out to them. And eventually they responded in faith.

In spite of their perfection, having no sin nature at all, they still sinned? How do you account for that?

I never imagined Adam and Eve. Did you? Or have you not read the first two chapters of Genesis? God is perfect and created two perfect individuals. They sinned.

First. Genesis 3:15 looks to the cross.
But aside from that I am responding to your illustration. God's creation did not have to be perfect in order to sin. They didn't have a sin nature. You don't want to deal with facts. Your illustration falls short.

I have well responded. You are the one that doesn't want to talk about Adam and Eve. You can't fit them into your paradigm. They won't fit. They cause your illustration to fall fat on its face.
God is a perfect God with a perfect plan both for a perfect couple (Adam and Eve), and a fallen race. To suggest anything less is to suggest that God is not perfect, and that is what you have done.

In this scenario, as per the OP, you blame God that he cannot save those that have never heard the gospel and relegate them to the unelect even though you have not that knowledge. That is no better than Gnosticism.

In case you haven't been paying attention I was.
I used them as an example to point holes in your thinking and theology. I guess they were more than holes, perhaps wide-mouthed gaping caverns.

Read a few threads on here objectively Icon. In case you haven't noticed there are some Cals that exist on this board for the express purpose of attacking the non-Cal position and nothing more, or so it seems. Yet as soon as their position is attacked their feelings are hurt and they go crying to mommy. There are some here that need to grow up.

Yes, I state quite plainly my objections to Calvinism. I am not one and will never be one. But this is not a Calvinistic thread. And that is not my M.O. My answer was as plain as day and you could not give an adequate answer.

 

DHK
I said this;Quote:
If you are speaking of the justified elect in Romans 5...yes...that is the us

You responded with this;

Then you jump away from facing the truth going to Jn 3:16 trying to suggest it is all men.....it is not.
Romans 5 is speaking of the elect who are Justified by God. You hate this teaching so you respond this way.
A mature way to respond would be to agree to the clear teaching of the passage. let me show you your error once again-

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we[/COLOR] have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Everyone else can see this very clearly...

The verse does not say..."He died for the whole world"...it says everyone believing....
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

You have claimed publically that you teach the scripture.
What are you teaching if you do not know these things?

Anyone familiar with the bible teaching of God's Covenant salvation knows He has come to save a multitude of believers...you seem unaquainted with these teachings once again.

Not all men get saved DHK....the only heresy here is your statement.Jesus saves All the father gives to Him...NO MORE, NO LESS

You show no understanding of election...none whatsoever...I have never seen it...maybe start a thread where you teach us your understanding of election as you understand it....

And i answered you-
Having already accomplished redemption He seeks and saves that which was lost...sending the Spirit to convict them of sin and work repentance in faith in them by giving the new heart of ezk36...so they willingly repent and believe the gospel by saving faith. In the words of Jonah...salvation is of the Lord.

The answer supplied is straight from scripture and accurate.

You speak of a limited idea , a potential salvation...rather than the actual real salvation of the elect.

What you call the Calvinistic idea is the biblical teaching....God grants repentance and faith...that is how the unregenerate lost people become regenerate saved people

.

he does it everyday all over the world.

When someone receives the gospel they are saved.

.
God grants it to His people...they will never do it unless the Spirit allows them to.

God's elect are scattered worldwide....not only in Israel....Not all men ever born....Not all men living are drawn....your view makes the word to no effect.

Your list of half verses and out of context verses do not change the truth.



See: John 1:12 "to as many as received him.

12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,
13 who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten

Like Satan in LK4...you and baptist 4 life only quote half the verse to try and change the meaning...

The bible does not say that....here is what it said;
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

All it is speaking of come to repentance..

.
No...or all would be saved,God's will is done.

Of course not...he was a fundamentalist like you are...they hate to discuss these truths.....That is why Jesus rebuked him-

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

he did not call it garbage like you do, or that profane term you used yesterday...but Jesus corrected him and you-



10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

These teachings are about heavenly things...Jesus taught all of these truths

.
Nicodemus was not prepared to learn these truths...like you..he learned some things but missed these truths.:thumbsup:

Of course because only the elect will believe...they are the everyone believing:thumbsup:

it does not say that.

only the elect get saved....if you can get any non elect saved..go for it:laugh:

No..i simply understand it as it is written...I do not have to add to it as you try and do.

This is a baseless claim.where do i quote from Calvin...another strawman!

No one quoted from him or said he was except you.

we should agree more than that...leave off your agenda and read what the church has understood confessionally.

 

DHK

if you took a poll everyone would tell you it was a strawman.

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it had nothing to do with the topic-

God made everything good-..it does not say perfect-

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

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i will state the biblical text.

The bible does not teach this,The bible teaches He died for His people,those given to Him by the Father. You have no concept of the Covenant nature of the atonement.

I did not say this or suggest it. You say this because you could not handle my answer.

yes,,,you should not do that.I have asked you many times to let me say what i say...you can say your error.

We were not discussing them or your man centered theology.

They were not perfect...they were untested .

God did not give Moses any description of the condition of their nature, pre-fall. Why do you take it upon yourself to speculate.

God is perfect.....where does it say Adam and eve were...perfect,I missed those verses.

When God spoke of JOB being perfect in his generation...the word meant complete...not sinless or absolutely perfect.

it is accurate and you cannot answer it...so you try to hide like adam did,
with the fig leaf of the genesis account as a distraction.

.

If you want to talk about them ,start a thread on it. You are derailing this thread.

You know the illustration I gave destroys your vain boasting about what you have done...it destroys it.

God is perfect with a perfect plan for His elect,eph 3:9-11

,
Still waiting for any verse on this supposed perfection...you have not posted those verses...because...they do not exist, except in your red herring argument.

This is a lie,and you once again bear false witness against me...a 9th commandment violation.

I never blame God for anything...this is another lie. Show where I have ever blamed God. can you possibly discuss any issue without this lying ,false witness that you do?

I have never claimed any knowledge of who God has elected or reprobated.
I know both are true however. Can you post without these false statements?

perhaps in your mind....

what i see is that non cals attack...with no scriptural basis whatsoever....look at "in the Light", steaver, Bap4life,JK,ewf....they do drive by attacks. cals respond with scripture...they disappear in cowardly fashion.

i see no one running away...i see rippon, con 1, reformed, jbh, and others destroy these false objections day by day.

not very plainly...you avoid scripture...or at least the full verses

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That is an unbelieving statement DHK...if God allows you to see it, you will be one.

The truth can sting, like peroxide on a wound....but this is your M.O.

 

DHK, this is what Brother Iconoclast did to you...

 

And after he did that to you, he took you here....

 

Willis....could you get a little more juvenile in your depictions ? You know that's called "insulting " don't you?

 

Nah, not juvenile...just poking a little fun DHK's way...


He can look to that Tim LaHaye poster he has tacked on the back of his bedroom door for strength when he gets weak...