What happens to those who never hear abut Christ?

[percho]

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Tim 1:9

Before the world began, what was God going to do whereby man could be called and saved?

V10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

How did that come about? Phil. 2:8,9 (The Son of God) became obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (That is) 1 Peter 1:19-21 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

That is the gospel. Let me ask. Is it preached to save people?

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14

Or is it preached as a witness, as to what God planed and brought to pass, through Jesus Christ?

Does one necessarily have to hear that in order to be saved?

Did it take place whether one hears it or not?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Spiritually dead people need the gospel. They were not spiritually dead.

How do you know that?

 

[webdog]

How do you know that?

"Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

Sin is the conscious violation of God's law. Neither were capable of this.

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,"

 

[The Biblicist]

My brain damaged sister and my infant son never heard the gospel....both are dead. Now where are they?

They were born spiritually dead as they suffered the consequences of sin in both their life (disease) and end (death). However, they will not be held accountable because they do not have the ability to discern right from wrong. The whole point of a conscience is ability to discern between what is right and wrong and thus be held accountable for choice. The whole point of just wrath in Romans 1:18 is based entirely upon such ability to discern the heavens and discern sin by conscience (Rom. 1:19-20; 2:14-15). This is also "the work of the Law" as it provides a discernable standard between right and wrong as a basis for final judgment. Those with that ability are "without excuse" but those without that ability do have a legitimate excuse.

The havoc brought on by the first man Adam was more than compensated by the Second man Christ. Infants even in the womb were subjected to death due to Adam's sin without any ability to discern right from wrong and without any opportunity to personally choose evil (Rom. 1:14) but where sin abounded in Adam, grace did much more abound by Christ. Heaven will outnumber hell because dying infants and the like brought under death in Adam (1 Cor. 15:20) will be redeemed by Christ exactly as they had been condemned in Adam.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

They were born spiritually dead as they suffered the consequences of sin in both their life (disease) and end (death). However, they will not be held accountable because they do not have the ability to discern right from wrong. The whole point of a conscience is ability to discern between what is right and wrong and thus be held accountable for choice. The whole point of just wrath in Romans 1:18 is based entirely upon such ability to discern the heavens and discern sin by conscience (Rom. 1:19-20; 2:14-15). This is also "the work of the Law" as it provides a discernable standard between right and wrong as a basis for final judgment. Those with that ability are "without excuse" but those without that ability do have a legitimate excuse.

The havoc brought on by the first man Adam was more than compensated by the Second man Christ. Infants even in the womb were subjected to death due to Adam's sin without any ability to discern right from wrong and without any opportunity to personally choose evil (Rom. 1:14) but where sin abounded in Adam, grace did much more abound by Christ. Heaven will outnumber hell because dying infants and the like brought under death in Adam (1 Cor. 15:20) will be redeemed by Christ exactly as they had been condemned in Adam.

Thanks Brother....now you gotta preach that to these legalistic Calvinists who cant interpert scripture with any degree of certainty.

 

[webdog]

They were born spiritually dead as they suffered the consequences of sin in both their life (disease) and end (death). However, they will not be held accountable because they do not have the ability to discern right from wrong. The whole point of a conscience is ability to discern between what is right and wrong and thus be held accountable for choice. The whole point of just wrath in Romans 1:18 is based entirely upon such ability to discern the heavens and discern sin by conscience (Rom. 1:19-20; 2:14-15). This is also "the work of the Law" as it provides a discernable standard between right and wrong as a basis for final judgment. Those with that ability are "without excuse" but those without that ability do have a legitimate excuse.

The havoc brought on by the first man Adam was more than compensated by the Second man Christ. Infants even in the womb were subjected to death due to Adam's sin without any ability to discern right from wrong and without any opportunity to personally choose evil (Rom. 1:14) but where sin abounded in Adam, grace did much more abound by Christ. Heaven will outnumber hell because dying infants and the like brought under death in Adam (1 Cor. 15:20) will be redeemed by Christ exactly as they had been condemned in Adam.

This is extra biblical. Spiritually dead people are guilty. Guilty people are all saved in the same manner, by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Of course someone who cannot discern right from wrong is not accountable. That is called not guilty.

Everyone who sins breaks the law (guilty); in fact, sin is lawlessness.-1 John 3:4

Everyone who is conceived breaks the law; in fact, conception is lawlessness. -1 Augustine 3:4

Believe the Bible.

 

[webdog]

Thanks Brother....now you gotta preach that to these legalistic Calvinists who cant interpert scripture with any degree of certainty.

Its not legalism. They are being true to what spiritually dead is and the consequences that results from being spiritually dead / guilty. If Augustine was correct, all babies are in hell apart from faith in Christ. It is by faith one is justified. Its the only end to this logical conclusion

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."
http://carm.org/verses-showing-justification-by-faith

 

[percho]

They were born spiritually dead as they suffered the consequences of sin in both their life (disease) and end (death). However, they will not be held accountable because they do not have the ability to discern right from wrong. The whole point of a conscience is ability to discern between what is right and wrong and thus be held accountable for choice. The whole point of just wrath in Romans 1:18 is based entirely upon such ability to discern the heavens and discern sin by conscience (Rom. 1:19-20; 2:14-15). This is also "the work of the Law" as it provides a discernable standard between right and wrong as a basis for final judgment. Those with that ability are "without excuse" but those without that ability do have a legitimate excuse.

The havoc brought on by the first man Adam was more than compensated by the Second man Christ. Infants even in the womb were subjected to death due to Adam's sin without any ability to discern right from wrong and without any opportunity to personally choose evil (Rom. 1:14) but where sin abounded in Adam, grace did much more abound by Christ. Heaven will outnumber hell because dying infants and the like brought under death in Adam (1 Cor. 15:20) will be redeemed by Christ exactly as they had been condemned in Adam.

Help me out.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:9
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen 3:22


Isn't, to know, right and wrong the same as , to know, good and evil.

Why did God not want the man, to know, good and evil if that is what gave him a conscience, to discern between the two?

 

[Rippon]

Thanks Brother....now you gotta preach that to these legalistic Calvinists who cant interpert[sic] scripture with any degree of certainty.

There are some quasi-Calvinists who misinterpret Scripture though. They are quazi. ;-)

 

[Yeshua1]

This is extra biblical. Spiritually dead people are guilty. Guilty people are all saved in the same manner, by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Of course someone who cannot discern right from wrong is not accountable. That is called not guilty.

Everyone who sins breaks the law (guilty); in fact, sin is lawlessness.-1 John 3:4

Everyone who is conceived breaks the law; in fact, conception is lawlessness. -1 Augustine 3:4

Believe the Bible.

ALL are born sinners and owe trhe sin debt we received from father adam to God, but the Cross of Christ made provisions for them who are unable to receive jesus thru faith..

We are all sinners and accountible to God, but he choses to remit the sins of those unable to come to Him as needed...

Babies are sinners, have you not had one throw a temper tantrum?

 

[The Biblicist]

This is extra biblical. Spiritually dead people are guilty. Guilty people are all saved in the same manner, by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Of course someone who cannot discern right from wrong is not accountable. That is called not guilty.

Everyone who sins breaks the law (guilty); in fact, sin is lawlessness.-1 John 3:4

Everyone who is conceived breaks the law; in fact, conception is lawlessness. -1 Augustine 3:4

Believe the Bible.

The whole of human nature, including you, existed and acted as one human nature in Adam, and that is why you suffer death because plainly says "by one man sin entered the world and DEATH BY SIN." He plainly says "BY ONE MAN'SOFFENCE many be dead" but does not say what your theory demands which would be "by many men's offences many be dead." So I do believe the Bible.

 

[The Biblicist]

Help me out.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:9
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen 3:22


Isn't, to know, right and wrong the same as , to know, good and evil.

Why did God not want the man, to know, good and evil if that is what gave him a conscience, to discern between the two?

First, he states Genesis 3:22 AFTER the fall, not before the fall. Hence, man had already eaten of the tree and already became as God knowing good from evil in the sense predicted - by experientially taking the position to determined good and evil for themselves. Hence, their act was knowledge by experience.

 

[webdog]

The whole of human nature, including you, existed and acted as one human nature in Adam, and that is why you suffer death because plainly says "by one man sin entered the world and DEATH BY SIN." He plainly says "BY ONE MAN'SOFFENCE many be dead" but does not say what your theory demands which would be "by many men's offences many be dead." So I do believe the Bible.

You falsely intertwine the curse on all with personal guilt.

 

[The Biblicist]

You falsely intertwine the curse on all with personal guilt.

I am not the one who said, "death by sin"! That was Paul (Rom. 5:12)! I am not the one who said by "ONE man's offence many be DEAD" Rom. 5:15.

He does not say as your theory demands "by MANY men's sins many be DEAD" or that "death by your sins".

 

[Yeshua1]

You falsely intertwine the curse on all with personal guilt.

If we were not part of the fall of Adam, then pauline theology makes no sense, as he saw us BOTH in the fall of Adam, and the saved in Christ!

 

[percho]

You falsely intertwine the curse on all with personal guilt.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:32

Is that all born of woman except Jesus of Nazareth, or just those we want to think of as all?

 

[webdog]

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:32

Is that all born of woman except Jesus of Nazareth, or just those we want to think of as all?

Have sinned is past tense. All who are capable have and will. The Bible contains words written to people with the mental faculties to understand what is written. Where there is no law there is no sin / guilt.

 

[webdog]

If we were not part of the fall of Adam, then pauline theology makes no sense, as he saw us BOTH in the fall of Adam, and the saved in Christ!

What are you talking about?

 

[webdog]

I am not the one who said, "death by sin"! That was Paul (Rom. 5:12)! I am not the one who said by "ONE man's offence many be DEAD" Rom. 5:15.

He does not say as your theory demands "by MANY men's sins many be DEAD" or that "death by your sins".

I never said that, and again you show you don't decipher the difference between the curse spreading to all men and personal guilt.

 

[Iconoclast]

Have sinned is past tense. All who are capable have and will. The Bible contains words written to people with the mental faculties to understand what is written. Where there is no law there is no sin / guilt.

All sinned .....at one point in time.......in Adam.........