What happens to those who never hear abut Christ?

[Rippon]

DHK, this is what Brother Iconoclast did to you...

That clocked was cleaned rather well.

 

[DHK]

DHK
I said this;Quote:
If you are speaking of the justified elect in Romans 5...yes...that is the us

Those that are justified are those that have believed by faith, just as the verse says. Why try and make it say something it doesn't. It doesn't say "elect." It says "justified by faith." Your eisigesis is unwarranted.

You responded with this;

Then you jump away from facing the truth going to Jn 3:16 trying to suggest it is all men.....it is not.
Romans 5 is speaking of the elect who are Justified by God. You hate this teaching so you respond this way.
A mature way to respond would be to agree to the clear teaching of the passage. let me show you your error once again-

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(vs.2-11)

Everyone else can see this very clearly...

Actually here is what "everyone can see quite clearly:
Romans chapter one: All Gentiles are condemned under sin.
Romans chapter two: All Jews are condemned under sin.
Romans chapter three: All the world (Jews and Gentiles) are all condemned under sin.
Romans chapter four: Salvation is by faith; not by the works of the law.
Concluding chapter four is the first verse of chapter five verse one:
Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God.

It is the theme of Romans, Acts, and John:
[FONT=&quot]John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.[/FONT]
--There is the summary verse of John. Eternal life comes by believing in Christ. That is entire reason why John wrote the book, he says: "These are written, that ye might..." He is not talking about the elect. There is no mention of any elect.
--John was written to "the world."

The verse does not say..."He died for the whole world"...it says everyone believing....
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

More eisigesis on your part.
Your interpretation of "believe" does not affect the broader meaning of "the world" no matter which way you look at. He died for all, everyone. Your interpretation simply is an attack on eternal security and opens the door to one losing their salvation. It does not say "everyone believing," but rather "keep on believing."

That whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life (hina pas ho pisteuôn en autôi echêi zôên aiônion). Final use of hina with present active subjunctive of echô, that he may keep on having eternal life (a frequent phrase in John, always in John aiônios occurs with zôê, 16 times in the Gospel, 6 in 1John, ageless or endless life, beginning now and lasting forever). It is more than endless, for it is sharing in the life of God in Christ (Joh 5:26; 17:3; 1Jo 5:12). So here en autôi (in him) is taken with echêi rather than with pisteuôn. --A.T. Robertson

But whosoever still remains whosoever. The world still remains the world. The verbs don't change the subject or the objects. They still remain the same. What you say doesn't make a whit of sense. You are just reading into the passage what you want to see. It ain't there.

You have claimed publically that you teach the scripture.
What are you teaching if you do not know these things?

I teach what the Scripture teaches, not what Icon teaches. The Word is far more precious.

Anyone familiar with the bible teaching of God's Covenant salvation knows He has come to save a multitude of believers...you seem unaquainted with these teachings once again.

Anyone familiar with covenants know that they were given for Israel and those that still are not fulfilled will be fulfilled through Israel. The one covenant for believers is made with Christ at the time of salvation when we establish a personal relationship with him.

Not all men get saved DHK....the only heresy here is your statement.Jesus saves All the father gives to Him...NO MORE, NO LESS

I never said all men get saved.
Jesus said; "I will draw all men to myself."

You show no understanding of election...none whatsoever...I have never seen it...maybe start a thread where you teach us your understanding of election as you understand it....

This thread is not about election. But you would like it to be. Stay on topic; focus.

And i answered you-
Having already accomplished redemption He seeks and saves that which was lost...sending the Spirit to convict them of sin and work repentance in faith in them by giving the new heart of ezk36...so they willingly repent and believe the gospel by saving faith. In the words of Jonah...salvation is of the Lord.

In light of the question, "What more could He have done," and in light of the above answer that you gave to that question, how is that going to help those in other nations who have never heard, hear the gospel so that they can be saved?

The answer supplied is straight from scripture and accurate.

I called it a non-answer because though you think it an accurate and scriptural answer it fails to address the question:
What happens to those who never hear Christ? How are they going to hear?

You speak of a limited idea , a potential salvation...rather than the actual real salvation of the elect.

Really? You call this a limited idea?

By sending his Son and paying the ultimate cost in shedding his precious blood for ALL mankind there is nothing more that Christ could have done.

That is what I said, and what you just responded to. That is what the Bible teaches. But you teach that Christ did not pay the ultimate cost in shedding his precious blood for All mankind. You teach that he shed a few drops for a few people. What a travesty!

[FONT=&quot]1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.[/FONT]

What you call the Calvinistic idea is the biblical teaching....God grants repentance and faith...that is how the unregenerate lost people become regenerate saved people

First, IMO, Calvin plagiarized Augustine. Your belief therefore is Augustinianism. Either way I don't find it scriptural.
Second, you are answering my question: "What more could God have done?"
Third, the very fact that you are answering implies that he didn't do enough for mankind according to you. It was an insufficient sacrifice.
Fourth, God doesn't "grant" repentance and faith to the unsaved. They must believe and repent on their own. A misunderstanding of certain scriptures on your part is very evident. Never in the Scriptures does God give faith to the unregenrate. Faith, in the spiritual realm, is portrayed only two ways: as a spiritual gift or a fruit of the Spirit. God does not give that kind of faith to the unsaved/unregenerate. The only other faith known to mankind is innate faith, the faith of a child; trust, confidence.

God's elect are scattered worldwide....not only in Israel....Not all men ever born....Not all men living are drawn....your view makes the word to no effect.

It is not my view.
1John 2:1,2 is in the Bible. I believe it.
I also believe Mat.28:19,20. That is my view. The Lord never told his disciples: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all the elect."
Nonsense!

Your list of half verses and out of context verses do not change the truth.

You are right. The truth cannot be changed. What I gave you is the truth.

The bible does not say that....here is what it said;
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

All it is speaking of come to repentance..

The Lord is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. Do you understand both of these words and their implications?
They are all inclusive. He meant what he said.
.

No...or all would be saved,God's will is done.

Your understanding of English is not very good.
I am certain you are familiar with the verse:
[FONT=&quot]1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.[/FONT]
--His "will" is that all men would be saved. It is written clearly here.
Have you ever prayed "The Lord's Prayer," 'Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.' Many do. Yet I am certain God's will is not done the same here as it is in heaven simply because we are frail human creatures with sin natures. Intentions may be good, but we are not perfectly holy.
Or,
"My will" as a father, may be quite lofty for my children. It may not turn out the way I want it to. My will is not always done. The reason--man has a free will and I can't always impose my will on my children.
God does not impose his will on mankind. We are not his robots.

 

[webdog]

Nah, not juvenile...just poking a little fun DHK's way...


He can look to that Tim LaHaye poster he has tacked on the back of his bedroom door for strength when he gets weak...

No, its called trolling and a violation of board rules. Wow, you sure have turned ugly on this board

 

[Rippon]

Jesus said; "I will draw all men to myself."

You have a choice. Do you think that John 12:32 means that Christ has and will continue to savingly unite each and every person to Jesus? Or, in a more biblically reflective mood admit that can't be right it must mean that "all" refers to all sorts of people. Remember also that a number of folks were already in Hell when Christ was literally raised up.

First, IMO, Calvin plagiarized Augustine.

You are not improving. You said the same old thing years ago and have not admitted your fault. You have reinventing the meaning of plagiarism. But according to Longman Dictionary of American English to plagiarize means to take someone else's words, ideas, etc. and copy them, pretending they are your own work without admitting you have done so.

Is that clear enough for you? Calvin admired Augustine and fully acknowledged the latter's material. Calvin willingly cited Augustine and was not stealing from him in any manner. When one credits a source you can't say that person is plagiarizing.

Fourth, God doesn't "grant" repentance and faith to the unsaved. They must believe and repent on their own.

Again, you have shown no improvement over the years DHK. God grants faith and repentance --no one has the ability or power to convert on their own. You say you believe in human depravity --but for you to insist that anyone is able to repent and believe on their own is in effect saying "Well, not that depraved --just a little corrupt." LOL!

The Lord never told his disciples: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all the elect."

And who is claiming that? Certainly not Icon or myself.
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
God does not impose his will on mankind.

What an imposition Lord! You intervened on my behalf and made me willing in the day of your power. And wouldn't you know it? God works in us to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

We are not his robots.

There's your old clincher, as if it actually has any effect. Like I said, you have not improved over the years DHK --you're still pumping out those same ole' tired lines.

 

[webdog]

hello WD,

Well Adams chicken was first..maybe it gave births to many chicks....

We all sinned in Adam as our representative...then we confirm that fact by the mountain of sin we commit...going forth from the womb speaking lies...

we are sinners by imputation and experience...you can say twice dead apart from God's mercy

I'm sorry, there is no such thing as "you were dead...then you became REALLY dead"

We are either dead in our iniquity, or we are dead in Adam's. Which is it?

 

[convicted1]

No, its called trolling and a violation of board rules. Wow, you sure have turned ugly on this board

I've turned ugly? Come on!! I've been on both sides of the debate on here. I can in all honestly tell you non-cals are way nastier in a debate. One recently banned turned on me like a starved wolf....I was all smart whilst I was on his side, and a blithering idiot who used to know the truth when my beliefs changed.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK, this is what Brother Iconoclast did to you...

now that's funny...right there

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...OlIUGjTNjOT1bM6TT8d1FrdHl9CbBmCP9FagvSWwaltBt

:laugh::laugh:
:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Those that are justified are those that have believed by faith, just as the verse says. Why try and make it say something it doesn't. It doesn't say "elect." It says "justified by faith." Your eisigesis is unwarranted.

That is a description of the elect...DHK...everyone who believes.A person will not believe if they have not been elected by God.
that is why paul says...I endure all things for the elects sake.

Actually here is what "everyone can see quite clearly:
Romans chapter one: All Gentiles are condemned under sin.
Romans chapter two: All Jews are condemned under sin.
Romans chapter three: All the world (Jews and Gentiles) are all condemned under sin.
Romans chapter four: Salvation is by faith; not by the works of the law.
Concluding chapter four is the first verse of chapter five verse one:
Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God.

ok:

It is the theme of Romans, Acts, and John:
[FONT=&quot]John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.[/FONT]
--There is the summary verse of John. Eternal life comes by believing in Christ. That is entire reason why John wrote the book, he says: "These are written, that ye might..."

okay so far:wavey:

He is not talking about the elect. There is no mention of any elect.

Why do you jump off the cliff here DHK?
Everyone who savingly believes...is Elect. You seem to think Elect is a dirty word rather than a blessing.... There is no mention of born from above believers here in Chapter 20 either...does that mean these believers were not born from above????




-

Your interpretation of "believe" does not affect the broader meaning of "the world" no matter which way you look at. He died for all, everyone. Your interpretation simply is an attack on eternal security and opens the door to one losing their salvation.

that is not true...it does not even relate to this? I am not following your last few posts...you seem a bit frazzled...

QUOTE]
It does not say "everyone believing," but rather "keep on believing."[/QUOTE]
I quoted Youngs literal translation...hardly eisegesis:laugh:
it actually says both....whosoever is not in the text....everyone believing, and continuing to believe is in the text.....I could offer you sermons on it...but you will not listen anyway:laugh:

But whosoever still remains whosoever.

Although not in the text..it would not change the teaching even if it was.

The world still remains the world. The verbs don't change the subject or the objects. They still remain the same. What you say doesn't make a whit of sense. You are just reading into the passage what you want to see. It ain't there.

here it is again;
John 3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 And there was a man of the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews,

2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.'

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?'

10 Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!

11 `Verily, verily, I say to thee -- What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;

12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?

13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,

15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave,

that every one who is believing in him may not perish,
but may have life age-during.

17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 `And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;

I teach what the Scripture teaches

,

No doubt..........except for all the errors that you slip in!!!!

The rest of this post contained very serious error...but my lunch break has ended...I will handle the more toxic portion in about 400 miles...lol

 

[webdog]

I've turned ugly? Come on!! I've been on both sides of the debate on here. I can in all honestly tell you non-cals are way nastier in a debate. One recently banned turned on me like a starved wolf....I was all smart whilst I was on his side, and a blithering idiot who used to know the truth when my beliefs changed.

Yes your demeanor has done a complete 180. Your last comment to DHK was uncalled for and nasty. You can't tell me anything as I've also been on both sides. Your "side" has obviously clouded your judgement.

 

[DHK]

DHK
That is a description of the elect...DHK...everyone who believes.A person will not believe if they have not been elected by God.
that is why paul says...I endure all things for the elects sake.

Some truths are self-evident. The entire book of Romans is written to the "elect." So you are on safe ground whenever you say that, aren't you?
You have ignored the entire context of the first four chapters of which Rom.5:1 is the conclusion. The only reason the "we" is the elect is because the "we" being spoken to, the believers at the church of Rome are those ones who put their faith and trust in Christ Jesus.

But you have to turn everything into a Calvinist thread. You wouldn't know they were elect unless they had first put their faith in Christ. You look at things backwards. The reason you know they are elect is because they have chosen Christ. And therefore the importance of the Great Commission remains.

Why do you jump off the cliff here DHK?
Everyone who savingly believes...is Elect. You seem to think Elect is a dirty word rather than a blessing.... There is no mention of born from above believers here in Chapter 20 either...does that mean these believers were not born from above????

Election is God's business not ours. Why presume to know the mind of God, when you don't? What do you say when the subject of evangelism comes up, or does it?
Is it: "I'm going to pray to God to lead me to the elect; I hope I don't sin and and tell the gospel to the non-elect on the way."
Truthfully, it would be better if you hadn't. They will be responsible for the light that they will be given. But we don't and will not be given that knowledge. And the onus of telling all is on us.

In your faith you constantly have to apologize to God.
Remember Charles Templeton (1915-2070).
He worked with Billy Graham when he first started out. He was a great evangelist, and for a while even more popular than Billy. Many were saved through his preaching. He preached faithfully the Word of God. He was also the pastor of the Avenue Road Baptist Church in Toronto.
In Evansville, Indiana, an average of 150 a night were coming to the Lord. Out of a population of 128,000, 91,000 had attended his campaign and church attendance had gone up by 17%.
Then something happened in his life.
He apostatized. He couldn't come to grips with the horrors of the holocaust, reconcile the "science" of evolution and the Bible. He began to deny everything he preached and died an atheist.

If you had lived at the same time you would have rejoiced. You would have said in your heart: There is one of God's elect. His name is written in the Lamb's book of life. He is doing the work of the elect. He has eternal life. No man can take it from him.
Now you must apologize to God.
Lord I made a mistake. He wasn't one of your elect after all. I should have let you make that decision, and not presume upon your wisdom.
What gives you the right to declare who is elect and who isn't? That is Calvinism's fallacy.
I don't know your heart and you don't know mine. God does. I trust we both have made "professions" of faith in Christ, and there is fruit in our lives. Are we "of the elect"? The Lord knows them that are His. I am not going to state on this board those things that God only knows. That is the arrogance of the Calvinist.

I quoted Youngs literal translation...hardly eisegesis
it actually says both....whosoever is not in the text....everyone believing, and continuing to believe is in the text.....I could offer you sermons on it...but you will not listen anyway

Every salvation text has the implication of "whosoever," and after the "whosoever" has come to Christ, from God's point of view the same text has the implication of "the elect." If you take away the "whosoever" you have taken away evangelism and the Great Commission.

Although not in the text..it would not change the teaching even if it was.

Quoting the entire chapter of John 3 won't change the meaning of verse 16. [/quote]

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave,

He gave His Son for the whole world. The only one putting limitations on this is you.

that every one who is believing in him may not perish,
but may have life age-during.

Now you are speaking like the J.W.'s, SDA's, and any other cult who wishes to use verses to deny eternal life. They change such scripture to limit "eternal" to an "age." Pitiful!
The everyone who is believing is the same as anyone who is believing or all who believe.

(LITV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(MKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
--Clearly, it is not "that if the elect should believe" as you want it to say.

17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
--His will is stated: All the world may be saved. That provision is made.
That won't happen because man is wicked. All the world will be judged in one way or another. Do you deny that? Will you also escape judgment?

18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 `And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;

The entire world will be judged. Light came into the entire world! Yes or no? The entire world has been the subject here all along. To read into this passage "the world of the elect" is horrendous eisigesis and a disservice to the Word of God. I hope others are not swayed by the errors of your theology.

 

[convicted1]

Yes your demeanor has done a complete 180. Your last comment to DHK was uncalled for and nasty. You can't tell me anything as I've also been on both sides. Your "side" has obviously clouded your judgement.

Well, when I was on your side of the debate, I got a little rough with the Calvinists. Remember the poem, "I am an elect"? I agree that sometimes I have went too, far, and have apologized. But I was poking some fun at DHK...sorry DHK if I hurt your feelings.

I have never thought more clearly in my life...nothing's clouded.


BTW, which one of us was banned for 20-30 days and the other hasn't even received one infraction? Hmmmmmm?

 

[Iconoclast]

Some truths are self-evident. The entire book of Romans is written to the "elect." So you are on safe ground whenever you say that, aren't you?

yes it is safe ground...I am comfortable there...I am comfortable with God's electing love...are you?

You have ignored the entire context of the first four chapters of which Rom.5:1 is the conclusion.

I am aware of the context...but we are not doing a romans bible study are we? I have a much more detailed outline of Romans than you do, so why would I not be aware of the context?

The only reason the "we" is the elect is because the "we" being spoken to, the believers at the church of Rome are those ones who put their faith and trust in Christ Jesus.

The we was spoken to them in Rome....but it applies to all who are justified,why do you see that as a problem?

But you have to turn everything into a Calvinist thread.

The biblical doctrine of election is for all Christians...it is a Christian thing, not a Calvinist thing....it should be for all Christians....a great blessing. That you guys back away from it, shows who has the wrong theology.

You wouldn't know they were elect unless they had first put their faith in Christ.

They put their faith in Christ because God gives saving faith to His elect people.

You look at things backwards.

you say that because your ideas and theology are man centered, ours is Christ centered....look at your posts...you did thgis, you did that, you had faith, you you you... We say God has done this, God has granted repentance unto life
..read your posts and see for yourself.

The reason you know they are elect is because they have chosen Christ.[/

b]

They do not elect themselves..Christ chooses them..see how it is you who are always backwards

And therefore the importance of the Great Commission remains.

It remains for this whole age.

Election is God's business not ours.

Who God elects and Why He elects them are His business.
That the bible teaches Election is a revealed truth given unto US.

Why presume to know the mind of God, when you don't?

because of this;
29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law
it is not presumption to obey God.

What do you say when the subject of evangelism comes up, or does it?
Is it: "I'm going to pray to God to lead me to the elect; I hope I don't sin and and tell the gospel to the non-elect on the way."

Where do you get such a strange idea? I pray that God will allow me to be faithful to every soul that God places in my path...the results belong to God.

Truthfully, it would be better if you hadn't. They will be responsible for the light that they will be given. But we don't and will not be given that knowledge. And the onus of telling all is on us.

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.



In your faith you constantly have to apologize to God.
Remember Charles Templeton (1915-2070).
He worked with Billy Graham when he first started out. He was a great evangelist, and for a while even more popular than Billy. Many were saved through his preaching. He preached faithfully the Word of God. He was also the pastor of the Avenue Road Baptist Church in Toronto.
In Evansville, Indiana, an average of 150 a night were coming to the Lord. Out of a population of 128,000, 91,000 had attended his campaign and church attendance had gone up by 17%.
Then something happened in his life.
He apostatized. He couldn't come to grips with the horrors of the holocaust, reconcile the "science" of evolution and the Bible. He began to deny everything he preached and died an atheist.

If you had lived at the same time you would have rejoiced. You would have said in your heart: There is one of God's elect. His name is written in the Lamb's book of life. He is doing the work of the elect. He has eternal life. No man can take it from him.
Now you must apologize to God.
Lord I made a mistake. He wasn't one of your elect after all. I should have let you make that decision, and not presume upon your wisdom.
What gives you the right to declare who is elect and who isn't? That is Calvinism's fallacy.

Calvinists do not do like you claim here....that is another thread...

I don't know your heart and you don't know mine. God does. I trust we both have made "professions" of faith in Christ, and there is fruit in our lives. Are we "of the elect"? The Lord knows them that are His. I am not going to state on this board those things that God only knows. That is the arrogance of the Calvinist.

It is not arrogance to know this;
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

that is who believers are....ELECT....no condemnation..

Every salvation text has the implication of "whosoever," and after the "whosoever" has come to Christ, from God's point of view the same text has the implication of "the elect." If you take away the "whosoever" you have taken away evangelism and the Great Commission.

It is literally everyone believing....I have told you...

Quoting the entire chapter of John 3 won't change the meaning of verse 16.

He gave His Son for the whole world. The only one putting limitations on this is you.

it does not say that...

Now you are speaking like the J.W.'s, SDA's, and any other cult who wishes to use verses to deny eternal life. They change such scripture to limit "eternal" to an "age." Pitiful!

Here is your signature personal attack...I tell you what it says...you deny the truth and attack me....

The everyone who is believing is the same as anyone who is believing or all who believe.

(LITV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(MKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
--Clearly, it is not "that if the elect should believe" as you want it to say.

only the elect will believe is the truth...if you can get any non elect to believe ..go for it:thumbsup:

17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
--His will is stated: All the world may be saved. That provision is made.
That won't happen because man is wicked. All the world will be judged in one way or another. Do you deny that? Will you also escape judgment?

you are in error..sorry to tell you.

The entire world will be judged. Light came into the entire world! Yes or no? The entire world has been the subject here all along. To read into this passage "the world of the elect" is horrendous eisigesis and a disservice to the Word of God. I hope others are not swayed by the errors of your theology.

I think seeing your theology answered with historic theology...people can see it clear enough:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Anyone familiar with covenants know that they were given for Israel and those that still are not fulfilled will be fulfilled through Israel.

While there were covenants made with the nation of Israel there are several other covenants that superceded those.

The one covenant for believers is made with Christ at the time of salvation when we establish a personal relationship with him.

We do not make a Covenant with God. The Covenant belongs to God himself and He includes His people in it. I see no evidence in your theology of any understanding here:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Your interpretation simply is an attack on eternal security and opens the door to one losing their salvation. It does not say "everyone believing," but rather "keep on believing."

Quote:
That whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life (hina pas ho pisteuôn en autôi echêi zôên aiônion). Final use of hina with present active subjunctive of echô, that he may keep on having eternal life (a frequent phrase in John, always in John aiônios occurs with zôê, 16 times in the Gospel, 6 in 1John, ageless or endless life, beginning now and lasting forever). It is more than endless, for it is sharing in the life of God in Christ (Joh 5:26; 17:3; 1Jo 5:12). So here en autôi (in him) is taken with echêi rather than with pisteuôn. --A.T. Robertson

DHK...if you understood your own quote it agrees with what I said

 

[convicted1]

Kings in OT times, when they made a decree, could not change/reverse it. See Darius with Daniel and Ashuarus(sp?) with Esther. God decreed to save a multitude, called His sheep, His elect, His chosen, etc. Once decreed, it could never be altered/changed, seeing He is immutable. We are placed in this covenant by Him, and do not add ourselves...

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Quote:
You speak of a limited idea , a potential salvation...rather than the actual real salvation of the elect.
Really? You call this a limited idea?

By sending his Son and paying the ultimate cost in shedding his precious blood

He did make a full atonement!

for ALL mankind

No...the atonement was perfect in its execution, and its design for all the Father gave the Son....10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Your continual denial of these truths is puzzling.....

there is nothing more that Christ could have done.

Your statement limits the atonement...this is not the scriptural testimony.Jesus actually saves .....not potential where He goes to the cross but no one gets saved , unless they add something to it.

That is what I said, and what you just responded to. That is what the Bible teaches.

If it was what the bible said we would agree. It looks more like what DHK says...so we do not agree.

But you teach that Christ did not pay the ultimate cost in shedding his precious blood for All mankind.

Correct...he paid the ultimate price for the Covenant children as the scripture says.

You teach that he shed a few drops for a few people. What a travesty!

here we go again...the DHK attack.....no where do I post he shed a few drops of blood.
If I did not post it and you say I did....you are lying and bearing false witness again a 9th commandment violation....now that is as you say a travesty.....

I have many times posted Jesus blood was shed for a multitude.....
Does this look like a few to you DHK-
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

I was told that one barrel of sand contains millions of grains of sand...that is just one barrel full...how about the number of the stars...can you count them DHK.
Stop saying things that I have never said. You speak for your point of view, I will speak for mine...

 

[Iconoclast]

Kings in OT times, when they made a decree, could not change/reverse it. See Darius with Daniel and Ashuarus(sp?) with Esther. God decreed to save a multitude, called His sheep, His elect, His chosen, etc. Once decreed, it could never be altered/changed, seeing He is immutable. We are placed in this covenant by Him, and do not add ourselves...

You are most certainly correct sir:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs:

 

[DHK]

You are most certainly correct sir:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs:

It is a moot point; a red herring if you will.
Here is the OP:

Another revelation of God is the conscience:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Here it talks about the Law, mainly referring to the Ten Commandments, basically everyone knows deep down inside, that lying, murder, stealing, etc are wrong, and this is written on man's heart in his conscience.
The point i am making is if a person refuses to accept the revelation of Creation, and the Revelation of Conscience, then God is not obligated to give the revelation of Christ, this is completely just and fair.If a person is not willing to learn simply addition and subtraction then it is not unjust for the teacher to be unwilling to teach him calculus.

God sends missionaries when he knows there are people who will be receptive.he is all knowing and knows who will accept his gift of eternal life.
People do not deserve to go to heaven because of sin, it is completely just for God to send anyone to hell,without them ever hearing the gospel, because all have sinned and chosen to do wrong in life. this includes people in foreign lands, When God allows sinners to have a chance to hear the gospel, that is called grace, because they do not deserve the chance, But I do believe that if there is anyone who would be willing to get saved, God will in fact allow them to hear the message somehow, the bible says that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.", the bible also says that he wills all men to come the knowledge of the truth and wills all men to be saved. Jesus also said that if he be lifted up (referring to the cross) that he will draw all men to himself; this shows that to some degree, God draws all men to Christ, to the degree that a person is willing to let God draw him, he will draw them.

Consider this passage from the bible:
Act 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Act 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Notice here is Eunuch reading the old testament scripture who is clearly searching for the truth, so God sends him somebody to explain to him about Jesus.
Consider another example:
Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Act 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Hope this helps you to understand.

You have effectively derailed this thread into one which now belongs in the Cal/Arm thread. It will now be closed.