Featured What happens to those who never hear abut Christ?

That clocked was cleaned rather well.

 

Those that are justified are those that have believed by faith, just as the verse says. Why try and make it say something it doesn't. It doesn't say "elect." It says "justified by faith." Your eisigesis is unwarranted.

Actually here is what "everyone can see quite clearly:
Romans chapter one: All Gentiles are condemned under sin.
Romans chapter two: All Jews are condemned under sin.
Romans chapter three: All the world (Jews and Gentiles) are all condemned under sin.
Romans chapter four: Salvation is by faith; not by the works of the law.
Concluding chapter four is the first verse of chapter five verse one:
Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God.

It is the theme of Romans, Acts, and John:
[FONT=&quot]John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.[/FONT]
--There is the summary verse of John. Eternal life comes by believing in Christ. That is entire reason why John wrote the book, he says: "These are written, that ye might..." He is not talking about the elect. There is no mention of any elect.
--John was written to "the world."

More eisigesis on your part.
Your interpretation of "believe" does not affect the broader meaning of "the world" no matter which way you look at. He died for all, everyone. Your interpretation simply is an attack on eternal security and opens the door to one losing their salvation. It does not say "everyone believing," but rather "keep on believing."

But whosoever still remains whosoever. The world still remains the world. The verbs don't change the subject or the objects. They still remain the same. What you say doesn't make a whit of sense. You are just reading into the passage what you want to see. It ain't there.

I teach what the Scripture teaches, not what Icon teaches. The Word is far more precious.

Anyone familiar with covenants know that they were given for Israel and those that still are not fulfilled will be fulfilled through Israel. The one covenant for believers is made with Christ at the time of salvation when we establish a personal relationship with him.

I never said all men get saved.
Jesus said; "I will draw all men to myself."

This thread is not about election. But you would like it to be. Stay on topic; focus.

In light of the question, "What more could He have done," and in light of the above answer that you gave to that question, how is that going to help those in other nations who have never heard, hear the gospel so that they can be saved?

I called it a non-answer because though you think it an accurate and scriptural answer it fails to address the question:
What happens to those who never hear Christ? How are they going to hear?

Really? You call this a limited idea?

By sending his Son and paying the ultimate cost in shedding his precious blood for ALL mankind there is nothing more that Christ could have done.

That is what I said, and what you just responded to. That is what the Bible teaches. But you teach that Christ did not pay the ultimate cost in shedding his precious blood for All mankind. You teach that he shed a few drops for a few people. What a travesty!

[FONT=&quot]1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.[/FONT]

First, IMO, Calvin plagiarized Augustine. Your belief therefore is Augustinianism. Either way I don't find it scriptural.
Second, you are answering my question: "What more could God have done?"
Third, the very fact that you are answering implies that he didn't do enough for mankind according to you. It was an insufficient sacrifice.
Fourth, God doesn't "grant" repentance and faith to the unsaved. They must believe and repent on their own. A misunderstanding of certain scriptures on your part is very evident. Never in the Scriptures does God give faith to the unregenrate. Faith, in the spiritual realm, is portrayed only two ways: as a spiritual gift or a fruit of the Spirit. God does not give that kind of faith to the unsaved/unregenerate. The only other faith known to mankind is innate faith, the faith of a child; trust, confidence.

It is not my view.
1John 2:1,2 is in the Bible. I believe it.
I also believe Mat.28:19,20. That is my view. The Lord never told his disciples: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all the elect."
Nonsense!

You are right. The truth cannot be changed. What I gave you is the truth.

The Lord is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. Do you understand both of these words and their implications?
They are all inclusive. He meant what he said.
.

Your understanding of English is not very good.
I am certain you are familiar with the verse:
[FONT=&quot]1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.[/FONT]
--His "will" is that all men would be saved. It is written clearly here.
Have you ever prayed "The Lord's Prayer," 'Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.' Many do. Yet I am certain God's will is not done the same here as it is in heaven simply because we are frail human creatures with sin natures. Intentions may be good, but we are not perfectly holy.
Or,
"My will" as a father, may be quite lofty for my children. It may not turn out the way I want it to. My will is not always done. The reason--man has a free will and I can't always impose my will on my children.
God does not impose his will on mankind. We are not his robots.

 

No, its called trolling and a violation of board rules. Wow, you sure have turned ugly on this board

 

You have a choice. Do you think that John 12:32 means that Christ has and will continue to savingly unite each and every person to Jesus? Or, in a more biblically reflective mood admit that can't be right it must mean that "all" refers to all sorts of people. Remember also that a number of folks were already in Hell when Christ was literally raised up.

You are not improving. You said the same old thing years ago and have not admitted your fault. You have reinventing the meaning of plagiarism. But according to Longman Dictionary of American English to plagiarize means to take someone else's words, ideas, etc. and copy them, pretending they are your own work without admitting you have done so.

Is that clear enough for you? Calvin admired Augustine and fully acknowledged the latter's material. Calvin willingly cited Augustine and was not stealing from him in any manner. When one credits a source you can't say that person is plagiarizing.

Again, you have shown no improvement over the years DHK. God grants faith and repentance --no one has the ability or power to convert on their own. You say you believe in human depravity --but for you to insist that anyone is able to repent and believe on their own is in effect saying "Well, not that depraved --just a little corrupt." LOL!

And who is claiming that? Certainly not Icon or myself.
[FONT=&quot]

What an imposition Lord! You intervened on my behalf and made me willing in the day of your power. And wouldn't you know it? God works in us to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

There's your old clincher, as if it actually has any effect. Like I said, you have not improved over the years DHK --you're still pumping out those same ole' tired lines.

 

I'm sorry, there is no such thing as "you were dead...then you became REALLY dead"

We are either dead in our iniquity, or we are dead in Adam's. Which is it?

 

I've turned ugly? Come on!! I've been on both sides of the debate on here. I can in all honestly tell you non-cals are way nastier in a debate. One recently banned turned on me like a starved wolf....I was all smart whilst I was on his side, and a blithering idiot who used to know the truth when my beliefs changed.

 

now that's funny...right there

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...OlIUGjTNjOT1bM6TT8d1FrdHl9CbBmCP9FagvSWwaltBt

:laugh::laugh:
:wavey:

 

DHK

That is a description of the elect...DHK...everyone who believes.A person will not believe if they have not been elected by God.
that is why paul says...I endure all things for the elects sake.

ok:

okay so far:wavey:

Why do you jump off the cliff here DHK?
Everyone who savingly believes...is Elect. You seem to think Elect is a dirty word rather than a blessing.... There is no mention of born from above believers here in Chapter 20 either...does that mean these believers were not born from above????




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that is not true...it does not even relate to this? I am not following your last few posts...you seem a bit frazzled...

QUOTE]
It does not say "everyone believing," but rather "keep on believing."[/QUOTE]
I quoted Youngs literal translation...hardly eisegesis:laugh:
it actually says both....whosoever is not in the text....everyone believing, and continuing to believe is in the text.....I could offer you sermons on it...but you will not listen anyway:laugh:

Although not in the text..it would not change the teaching even if it was.

here it is again;
John 3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 And there was a man of the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews,

2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.'

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?'

10 Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!

11 `Verily, verily, I say to thee -- What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;

12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?

13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,

15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave,

that every one who is believing in him may not perish,
but may have life age-during.

17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 `And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;

,

No doubt..........except for all the errors that you slip in!!!!

The rest of this post contained very serious error...but my lunch break has ended...I will handle the more toxic portion in about 400 miles...lol

 

Yes your demeanor has done a complete 180. Your last comment to DHK was uncalled for and nasty. You can't tell me anything as I've also been on both sides. Your "side" has obviously clouded your judgement.

 

Some truths are self-evident. The entire book of Romans is written to the "elect." So you are on safe ground whenever you say that, aren't you?
You have ignored the entire context of the first four chapters of which Rom.5:1 is the conclusion. The only reason the "we" is the elect is because the "we" being spoken to, the believers at the church of Rome are those ones who put their faith and trust in Christ Jesus.

But you have to turn everything into a Calvinist thread. You wouldn't know they were elect unless they had first put their faith in Christ. You look at things backwards. The reason you know they are elect is because they have chosen Christ. And therefore the importance of the Great Commission remains.

Election is God's business not ours. Why presume to know the mind of God, when you don't? What do you say when the subject of evangelism comes up, or does it?
Is it: "I'm going to pray to God to lead me to the elect; I hope I don't sin and and tell the gospel to the non-elect on the way."
Truthfully, it would be better if you hadn't. They will be responsible for the light that they will be given. But we don't and will not be given that knowledge. And the onus of telling all is on us.

In your faith you constantly have to apologize to God.
Remember Charles Templeton (1915-2070).
He worked with Billy Graham when he first started out. He was a great evangelist, and for a while even more popular than Billy. Many were saved through his preaching. He preached faithfully the Word of God. He was also the pastor of the Avenue Road Baptist Church in Toronto.
In Evansville, Indiana, an average of 150 a night were coming to the Lord. Out of a population of 128,000, 91,000 had attended his campaign and church attendance had gone up by 17%.
Then something happened in his life.
He apostatized. He couldn't come to grips with the horrors of the holocaust, reconcile the "science" of evolution and the Bible. He began to deny everything he preached and died an atheist.

If you had lived at the same time you would have rejoiced. You would have said in your heart: There is one of God's elect. His name is written in the Lamb's book of life. He is doing the work of the elect. He has eternal life. No man can take it from him.
Now you must apologize to God.
Lord I made a mistake. He wasn't one of your elect after all. I should have let you make that decision, and not presume upon your wisdom.
What gives you the right to declare who is elect and who isn't? That is Calvinism's fallacy.
I don't know your heart and you don't know mine. God does. I trust we both have made "professions" of faith in Christ, and there is fruit in our lives. Are we "of the elect"? The Lord knows them that are His. I am not going to state on this board those things that God only knows. That is the arrogance of the Calvinist.

Every salvation text has the implication of "whosoever," and after the "whosoever" has come to Christ, from God's point of view the same text has the implication of "the elect." If you take away the "whosoever" you have taken away evangelism and the Great Commission.

Quoting the entire chapter of John 3 won't change the meaning of verse 16. [/quote]

He gave His Son for the whole world. The only one putting limitations on this is you.

Now you are speaking like the J.W.'s, SDA's, and any other cult who wishes to use verses to deny eternal life. They change such scripture to limit "eternal" to an "age." Pitiful!
The everyone who is believing is the same as anyone who is believing or all who believe.

(LITV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(MKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
--Clearly, it is not "that if the elect should believe" as you want it to say.

 

Well, when I was on your side of the debate, I got a little rough with the Calvinists. Remember the poem, "I am an elect"? I agree that sometimes I have went too, far, and have apologized. But I was poking some fun at DHK...sorry DHK if I hurt your feelings.

I have never thought more clearly in my life...nothing's clouded.


BTW, which one of us was banned for 20-30 days and the other hasn't even received one infraction? Hmmmmmm?

 

it does not say that...

Here is your signature personal attack...I tell you what it says...you deny the truth and attack me....

only the elect will believe is the truth...if you can get any non elect to believe ..go for it:thumbsup:

 

DHK

While there were covenants made with the nation of Israel there are several other covenants that superceded those.

We do not make a Covenant with God. The Covenant belongs to God himself and He includes His people in it. I see no evidence in your theology of any understanding here:thumbs:

 

DHK

DHK...if you understood your own quote it agrees with what I said

 

Kings in OT times, when they made a decree, could not change/reverse it. See Darius with Daniel and Ashuarus(sp?) with Esther. God decreed to save a multitude, called His sheep, His elect, His chosen, etc. Once decreed, it could never be altered/changed, seeing He is immutable. We are placed in this covenant by Him, and do not add ourselves...

 

DHK

 

You are most certainly correct sir:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs:

 

It is a moot point; a red herring if you will.
Here is the OP:

You have effectively derailed this thread into one which now belongs in the Cal/Arm thread. It will now be closed.