Featured The Great blessing of the biblical teaching of Election

PreachTony

Thanks for your response.

It is indeed good to know that we agree on much more than we disagree with,and that should be the case among Christians:wavey:

What I would say is this;
While it is true that I see what Jesus , the apostles, the prophets, taught as the truths that are called "Calvinism".....I am open to scriptural instruction and correction to improve upon or clarify these truths.
I have much to learn on these issues. when I am among more learned and gifted cals...I am corrected and challenged many a time on various issues.

I will look forward to your best scriptural offerings. keep in mind that I have sought out the strongest objections I could find over the last 40 yrs or so...so light little opinions and shallow ideas will not change much.
I can offer better objections than what are offered here 85% of the time, because I have worked through them.

That being said.....I do NOT...believe that we are dealing with two systems that are equally true. If it were a spectrum... Calvinism would be in the middle, non cals on the left.....primitive Baptists are assorted other hypercals on the right.
Each individual person is at different places along the spectrum in their understanding , and experience with the teachings.
You can see that on display on BB everyday.

Yes...God is sovereign ....if I saw you witnessing to a person in the mall of Georgia, I might listen in and pray for you and the person.....but I would not come at you like we do in here and under-cut your presentation in front of the unsaved person. I would be glad that you were concerned for His salvation from sin.
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

:thumbsup:

this question while related is secondary in that God's Decree over rides it.

All men are perishing from our view point. Gods thoughts are His alone, unless He makes them known to us. I do not see in scripture the idea that all men everywhere will have an opportunity to hear the gospel, or given a chance.
I do see where all of the elect will be saved.
Lord willing:thumbsup:

 

PreachTony

No one I have ever heard of says this. Preaching is in part to edify the saints for sure, but it does not exclude the unconverted

give an example of what you mean...what imput?

I

It depends which verses you used.

.
this descrbes the love of the brethren..

The bible does not present the Love of God as outside of Christ.

How....?....is to follow the pattern in scripture....God saves sinners.... His love is found In the Son, not apart from Him.

Explain this to me. When Jesus was on the cross and said...it is finished- how did it give a chance to someone living in the South American rain forest?

How did it give a chance to someone in central China? What about someone in those locations who died 3 years before the cross???

Without a person speaking to them...how do all men get a chance....Do you have any scripture that suggests this? I think this idea is not found in scripture.

This language is not found in scripture and the teaching is not found in scripture. What is found in scripture is a revealation of God electing a multitude to be Saved In Jesus. God knows who will be saved, because He has ordained to save them. He knows each one by name, He has elected them.

To suggest that God ..."knows" who will do something suggests God needs to learn something which is non scriptural.

Do you see why I say your position must be inconsistent at best?

That is not the Calvinist idea....
http://www.arbca.com/1689-chapter10
1. Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace. ( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

4. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess. ( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

eph 1;3-11 addresses this...explain that portion of ephs 1

 

PT

PT....you quote EPH 1:3-5....explain it word by word...without leaving EPH 1 ...what does it say? what does it mean?

http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/am_grace.htm

 

Welcome to BB.

On threads that I start you can go where you need to as the discussion drifts a bit... are you familiar with :wavey:www. sermonaudio.com? it is really good:wavey:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who hath blessed us
with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us

According as he hath chosen us in Him

According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,

that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,

according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace,

wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


All men are not chosen, all men are not adopted, all men are not accepted in the Beloved.

 

http://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/40527


RICHARD SIBBES - Some are much troubled because they proceed by a false method and order in judging of their estates. They will begin with election, which is the highest step of the ladder; whereas they should begin from a work of grace wrought within their hearts, from God's calling by His Spirit, and their answer to His call, and so raise themselves upwards to know their election by their answer to God's calling. "Give all diligence," says Peter, "to make your calling and election sure," your election by your calling. God descends unto us from election to calling, and so to sanctification; we must ascend to Him beginning where He ends.

RICHARD BAXTER - I tell you again, God hath not ordinarily decreed the end without the means; and if you will neglect the means of salvation, it is a certain mark that God hath not decreed you to salvation. But you shall find that He hath left you no excuse, because He hath not thus predestined you.


THOMAS ADAMS - Predestination is pleaded. If I be written to life, I may do this; for many are saved that have done worse. If not, were my life never so strict, hell appointed is not to be avoided. These men look to the top of the ladder, but not to the foot. God ordains not men to jump to heaven, but to climb thither by prescribed degrees. He that decreed the end, decreed also the means that conduce it. If thou take liberty to sin, this is none of the way. Peter describes the rounds of this ladder: "Faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, charity." Thou runnest a contrary course, in the wild paths of unbelief, profaneness, ignorance, riot, impatience, impiety, malice; this is none of the way. These are the rounds of a ladder that goes downward to hell. God's predestination helps many to stand, pusheth none down. Look thou to the way, let God alone with the end.

 

THOMAS WATSON - It is absurd to think that anything in us could have the least influence upon our election. Some say that God did foresee that such persons would believe, and therefore did choose them; so they would make the business of salvation to depend upon something in us. Whereas God does not choose us FOR faith, but TO faith. "He hath chosen us, that we should be holy" (Eph. 1:4), not because we would be holy, but that we might be holy. We are elected to boldness, not for it.


THOMAS BROOKS - The purpose of God is the sovereign cause of all that good that is in man, and of all that external, internal and eternal good that comes to man. Not works past, for men are chosen from everlasting; not works present, for Jacob was loved and chosen before he was born; nor works foreseen, for men were all corrupt in Adam. All a believer's present happiness, and all his future happiness springs from the eternal purpose of God.


THOMAS MANTON - Election is ascribed to God the Father, sanctification to the Spirit, and reconciliation to Jesus Christ.... This is the chain of salvation and never a link of this chain must be broken. The Son cannot die for them whom the Father never elected, and the Spirit will never sanctify them whom the Father hath not elected nor the Son redeemed.

THOMAS GOODWIN - Oh despise not election! therein lies all your hope, that there is a remnant who shall infallibly be saved.

 

AW Pink

Faith is God's gift, and "all men have not faith" (2 Thess. 3:2); therefore, we see that God does not bestow this gift upon all. Upon whom then does He bestow this saving favor? And we answer, upon His own elect-"As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). Hence it is that we read of "the faith of God's elect" (Titus 1:1). But is God partial in the distribution of His favors? Has He not the right to be? Are there still some who murmur against the Goodman of the house'? Then His own words are sufficient reply-"Is it not lawful for Me to do what I will with Mine own?" (Matt. 20:15). God is Sovereign in the bestowment of His gifts, both in the natural and in the spiritual realms. So much then for a general statement, and now to particularize.

Not only has God the right to do as He wills with the creatures of His own hands, but He exercises this right, and nowhere is that seen more plainly than in His predestinating grace. Before the foundation of the world God made a choice, a selection, an election. Before His omniscient eye stood the whole of Adam's race, and from it He singled out a people and predestinated them "to be conformed to the image of His Son," "ordained" them unto eternal life. Many are the Scriptures which set forth this blessed truth, seven of which will now engage our attention.

"As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). Every artifice of human ingenuity has been employed to blunt the sharp edge of this Scripture and to explain away the obvious meaning of these words, but it has been employed in vain, though nothing will ever be able to reconcile this and similar passages to the mind of the natural man. "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed." Here we learn four things: First, that believing is the consequence and not the cause of God's decree. Second, that a limited number only are "ordained to eternal life," for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words "as many as" are a meaningless qualification. Third, that this "ordination" of God is not to mere external privileges but to "eternal life," not to service but to salvation itself. Fourth, that all-"as many as," not one less-who are thus ordained by God to eternal life will most certainly believe.
The comments of the beloved Spurgeon on the above passage are well worthy of our notice. Said he, "Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste time in answering them. I read: 'As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,' and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man. Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe? If men are disposed to have eternal life, does not He-in every case-dispose them? Is it wrong for God to give grace? If it be right for Him to give it, is it wrong for Him to purpose to give it? Would you have Him give it by accident? If it is right for Him to purpose to give grace today, it was right for Him to purpose it before today-and, since He changes not-from eternity."

 

http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/



"A remnant according to the election of grace." Here the cause of election is traced back to its source. The basis upon which God elected this "remnant" was not faith foreseen in them, because a choice founded upon the foresight of good works is just as truly made on the ground of works as any choice can be, and in such a case it would not be "of grace"; for, says the Apostle, "if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"; which means that grace and works are opposites, they have nothing in common, and will no more mingle than oil and water. Thus the idea of inherent good foreseen in those chosen, or of anything meritorious performed by them, is rigidly excluded. "A remnant according to the election of grace" signifies an unconditional choice resulting from the Sovereign favor of God; in a word, it is absolutely a gratuitous election.


"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess. 2:13). There are three things here which deserve special attention. First, the fact that we are expressly told that God's elect are "chosen to salvation." Language could not be more explicit. How summarily do these words dispose of the sophistries and equivocations of all who would make election refer to nothing but external privileges or rank in service! It is to "salvation" itself that God hath chosen us. Second, we are warned here that election unto salvation does not disregard the use of appropriate means: salvation is reached through "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." It is not true that because God has chosen a certain one to salvation that he will be saved willy-nilly, whether he believes or not: nowhere do the Scriptures so represent it. The same God who predestined the end also appointed the means; the same God who "chose unto salvation" decreed that His purpose should be realized through the work of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Third, that God has chosen us unto salvation is a profound cause for fervent praise. Note how strongly the Apostle expresses this-"we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation," etc. Instead of shrinking hack in horror from the doctrine of predestination, the believer, when he sees this blessed truth as it is unfolded in the Word, discovers a ground for gratitude and thanksgiving such as nothing else affords, save the unspeakable gift of the Redeemer Himself.

 

on psalm 25

14 The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant

Verse 14. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him, etc. Albeit the Lord's covenant with the visible church be open, and plain in itself to all men in all the articles thereof, yet it is a mystery to know the inward sweet fellowship which a soul may have with God by virtue of this covenant; and a man fearing God shall know this mystery, when such as are covenanters only in the letter do remain ignorant thereof; for to the fearers of God only is this promise made -- that to them the Lord will show his covenant. David Dickson.

and Thomas Goodwin comments on what many deny...right here;

Verse 14. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him. The gospel, though published to all the world, yet it is entitled a mystery, and a mystery hid, for none know it but the saints, who are taught of God, and are his scholars. John 6:45 . That place shows that there must be a secret teaching by God, and a secret learning. "If they have heard, and been taught of God." Now God teacheth none but saints, for all that are so taught come unto him: "Every one who hath heard, and learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Aye, but you will say, Do not many carnal men know the gospel, and discourse of things in it, through strength of learning, etc? I answer out of the text Colossians 1:26-27 , that though they may know the things which the gospel reveals, yet not the riches and glory of them, that same rich knowledge spoken of in the word, they want, and therefore know them not;


as a child and a jeweller looking upon a pearl, both look upon it, and call it by the same name; but the child yet knows it not as a pearl in the worth and riches of it as the jeweller doth, and therefore cannot be said to know it. Now in Matthew 13:45 , a Christian only is likened to a merchantman, that finds a pearl of great price, that is, discovered to be so, and sells all he hath for it, for he knows the worth of it. But you will say, Do not carnal men know the worth of the things in the gospel, and can they not discourse of the rich grace of Christ, and of his worth? I answer, yes, as a man who hath gotten an inventory by heart, and the prices also, and so may know it; yet never was he led into the exchequer and treasury, to see all the jewels themselves, the wardrobe of grace, and Christ's righteousness, to see the glory of them; for these are all "spiritually discerned," as the apostle says expressly, 1 Corinthians 2:14 . Thomas Goodwin.

 

This man must have seen a vision of BB-

Verse 14. The secret. Arminius and his company ransack all God's secrets, divulge and communicate them to the seed of the woman, and of the serpent all alike; they make God's eternal love of election no secret, but a vulgar idea;

they make the mystery of Christ, and him crucified, no secret, but like an apothecary's drug, catholical; they make the especial grace of God no secret, but a common quality; faith no secret, but a general virtue; repentance and the new creature no secret, but an universal gift; no secret favour to St. Peter, but make God a party ante, not to love St. Peter more than Judas; no secret intent to any one person more than another;



but that Christ might have died for all him, and never a man saved; no secret working of the Lord in any more than other; but for anything that either God the Father hath done by creating, God the Son by redeeming, or God the Holy Ghost by sanctifying, all the world were left to their scrambling -- take it if you will, if you will not, refuse.

They say God would have men to be saved, but that he will not work it for his own part, rather for this man or that man determinatively that he be saved. William Fenner.