The Great blessing of the biblical teaching of Election

[convicted1]

Asking specifics is one thing, getting MB to answer an honest question will entail some skirting of the issue.

His possible responses:

1) A made-up Calvinist doctrine. It can't be found in the Bible.
2) Calvinists think only Calvinists are the elect.
3) Jews are the only elect in the Bible.
4) Election has nothing to do with salvation.
5) The doctrine only causes friction, so I don't even talk about except when those arrogant Calvinists go on and on about it.
____________________________________________________

He might actually have a reply with a combination of some of the above.

This may all be true, but I hope not. I want us to have a clearer understanding of each other's views, and maybe we can make some progress. One can hope...

 

[Yeshua1]

John Murray again;
The hallmark of Calvinism is unconditional election and that is exactly what this highest type of Arminianism vigorously denies. It professes indeed fixed and unchangeable election of individuals. But what is meant is, that, since God decrees to save all who believe and since He knows perfectly beforehand and from eternity who will believe, He on the basis of that foresight as ground and cause elects these individuals to eternal life. God elects all whom He foresees will believe and persevere to the end. His election then is determined by His foresight of some difference that comes to exist among men, a difference which He Himself does not cause but which in the final analysis is due to sovereign choice on the part of the human will. The determining factor in this type of election then is not the sovereign unconditioned good pleasure of God but the decision of the human will which God from eternity foresees. Election is not the source of faith, but faith foreseen is made the source or condition of election.On close examination it should be evident that this is not divine election at all. The sovereign determination of God is ruled out at the vital point, for the ultimate determinant of the discrimination that exists among men is made to be something in men and not the sovereign good pleasure of God. Indeed this type of Arminianism that at first appears to approach so closely to the Reformed position only serves to show more clearly the total difference between the two systems. The election taught in the Reformed Church is election to salvation and eternal life and therefore also to faith and all other graces as the means ordained of God to the accomplishment of His sovereign decree. Election is not then conditioned upon faith, but faith is the fruit of election. God sovereignly works faith in men because He has in His eternal counsel appointed them to salvation. Faith is not the logical prius of election, but election is the eternal prius and source of faith. Arminianism at its best denies all of these propositions.

The denial of unconditional election strikes at the heart of the doctrine of the grace of God. The grace of God is absolutely sovereign and every failure to recognize and appreciate the absolute sovereignty of God in His saving grace is an expression of the pride of the human heart. It rests upon the demand that God can deal differently with men in the matter of salvation only because they have made themselves to differ. In its ultimate elements it means that the determining factor in salvation is what man himself does, and that is just tantamount to saying that it is not God who determines the salvation of men, but men determine their own salvation; it is not God who saves but man saves himself. This is precisely the issue.

The basic reason that many of us refuse to accept this is the truth is our human pride, as we keep wanting to somehow be able to show just why God was able to chose us to get saved... "I accepted Jesus, I made the right choice, I am not that bad a sinner, I was raised in a Christian family" etc!

 

[steaver]

This may all be true, but I hope not. I want us to have a clearer understanding of each other's views, and maybe we can make some progress. One can hope...

I thought you use to be a non-cal and had all the arguments against calvinism? Don't you already have an understanding of both views? I have never accepted the Calvinist position, but I understand their views, I just don't agree with the position. I see the flaws.

 

[steaver]

The basic reason that many of us refuse to accept this is the truth is our human pride, as we keep wanting to somehow be able to show just why God was able to chose us to get saved... "I accepted Jesus, I made the right choice, I am not that bad a sinner, I was raised in a Christian family" etc!

Basic? Ah, No. Has nothing to do with pride, nothing to do with being a not so bad sinner. We don't accept it as truth because we see ALL the hundreds of passages pleading with people to choose God. Total Depravity makes no sense in light of the Scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

I thought you use to be a non-cal and had all the arguments against calvinism? Don't you already have an understanding of both views? I have never accepted the Calvinist position, but I understand their views, I just don't agree with the position. I see the flaws.

you have not come close to accurately describing the position. there are many fine quotes or here...interact with them and show why you find fault with them...mb has failed to do so.

 

[steaver]

you have not come close to accurately describing the position. there are many fine quotes or here...interact with them and show why you find fault with them...mb has failed to do so.

So says the great apostle Iconoclast..........................it is written by Icon..........thus it must be divine truth........

 

[convicted1]

I thought you use to be a non-cal and had all the arguments against calvinism?

True....

Don't you already have an understanding of both views?

I would like to think I have...

I have never accepted the Calvinist position,

That's unfortunate...:smilewinkgrin:

but I understand their views,

No you don't. You think you do, but you're not even in the ballpark of what calvinism is and all it entails...

I just don't agree with the position.

Shame...:laugh:

I see the flaws.

There are no flaws. People who oppose calvinism are Don Quixote's...

 

[steaver]

There are no flaws. People who oppose calvinism are Don Quixote's...

Ah yes, another apostle in our midst. Absolutely no flaws....divine truth!!

 

[Iconoclast]

So says the great apostle Iconoclast..........................it is written by Icon..........thus it must be divine truth........

The quotes are offered...the confessions stand as written for hundreds of years. You can freely post and offer correction.
If you are not quite up to it steaver that's okay...just stop whining about it.:thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

Ah yes, another apostle in our midst. Absolutely no flaws....divine truth!!

It's childish posts such as these that do not further the discussion. Grow up!!


Look, you repeat the same things over and over and over, and we keep telling you you have no idea about our position, and yet you keep saying you do.

I was in your place once. I hated calvinism/DoG, and called it a "doctrine of devils" more than once on here. I just knew I knew it. But when God showed me all that it entails, how it snaps together like links, I saw it for its true beauty.

I am not an apostle, nor am I trying to be one. But your childish remarks do you zero favors...

 

[steaver]

Look, you repeat the same things over and over and over, and we keep telling you you have no idea about our position, and yet you keep saying you do.

I repeat the flaws, you refuse to see them, or dismiss them, for whatever reason only be known to you. I know your position very well because I can see all around, once you jump into it, your sight becomes narrow and you can only see Calvinism.

I was in your place once. I hated calvinism/DoG, and called it a "doctrine of devils" more than once on here. I just knew I knew it. But when God showed me all that it entails, how it snaps together like links, I saw it for its true beauty.

I am not an apostle, nor am I trying to be one. But your childish remarks do you zero favors

I have the same scriptures you do. I have the same Holy Spirit you do, but God has not shown me Calvinism is unflawed, in fact, just the opposite, so until He does, I guess you are stuck with seeing me as a child. :wavey: But hey? You should feel quite confident at Christ's judgment seat, since you have perfect doctrine in Calvinism, there should be only gold, silver and precious stones for you :thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Alright Brother Steaver....neither of us will get anywhere using the demeanor BOTH of us have used on here. Soooo, let us start afresh....


Hello Steaver. My name is Willis Fletcher, Jr., but people on here know me as "convicted1". It appears you and I have differing views in regards to election. Now, what are you views considering...


--Election?
--The elect?
--The fall of Adam?
--Of Adam's posterity?


Brother, please, let's be civil, and give me your views on these subjects, and we'll start over, deal? :saint:

 

[Yeshua1]

The quotes are offered...the confessions stand as written for hundreds of years. You can freely post and offer correction.
If you are not quite up to it steaver that's okay...just stop whining about it.:thumbsup:

I am a Baptist calvinist, so would tend to see that we need to quote and use just the scriptures to argue these points, not just the Confessions!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I thought you use to be a non-cal and had all the arguments against calvinism? Don't you already have an understanding of both views? I have never accepted the Calvinist position, but I understand their views, I just don't agree with the position. I see the flaws.

You know Steve, everyone in this country has the right to believe what they want, to interpret the scripture as they see fit and to worship as they believe (long as it doesn't hurt another person). This is so no matter how rediculous you think it is.

Both you and Icon have castigated me for going into bars to bring the word to sinners, you both have criticized me and others (PB 's) for their views.....from my prospective, how dare you. I'm sure both of you who live in the NorthEast have enough Catholics and PCUSA and United Methodists and Lutherans and Orthodox Catholics to bring the Word to......but you are both at each others throats.

See you both turn me off to religion....and I'm fairly certain you turn off many who view you in here and other places.

So knock it off...you both behave like Pharisees ....Christ came for sinners.....focus in on that and that alone.

http://www.google.com/#q=cry+out+to+jesus

 

[Iconoclast]

Earth, Wind & Fire

Both you and Icon have castigated me for going into bars to bring the word to sinners, you both have criticized me and others (PB 's) for their views.....from my prospective, how dare you.

Could you show where I told you not to bring the word to sinners?
Since I never said that you bear false witness once again:wavey:

See you both turn me off to religion....and I'm fairly certain you turn off many who view you in here and other places.

You have posted how you reject The Church who Christ has died for...you did not feel comfortable fellowshipping in the church fellowship hall....no there are thousands of Christians in NJ...and they are all hiding from you:laugh:

We have
"turned you off" to religion????

When were you "turned onto religion?:laugh:

read your posts...you are critical of the churches, Cals, basically anyone who questions you and holds you accountable.....

have you ever even been a member of any church at all....where was it? who was the Pastor?

Steaver does not want an answer...he is on a crusade...like winman used to be. He like you accuses the brethren and the truth....sometimes we respond.:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

I am a Baptist calvinist

,

ok

so would tend to see that we need to quote and use just the scriptures

Y1...you say this, but I do not believe you....Why????.....you never post any scripture at all...thousands of posts.....[14000]
I think in one post you offer two verses...dozens have asked you for scripture:thumbsup:

we need to quote and use just the scripture to argue these points, not just the Confessions!

This is ignorance here! Do you understand that any one question in any of the confessions offers more scriptures than you have posted in years:wavey:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Alright Brother Steaver....neither of us will get anywhere using the demeanor BOTH of us have used on here. Soooo, let us start afresh....


Hello Steaver. My name is Willis Fletcher, Jr., but people on here know me as "convicted1". It appears you and I have differing views in regards to election. Now, what are you views considering...


--Election?
--The elect?
--The fall of Adam?
--Of Adam's posterity?


Brother, please, let's be civil, and give me your views on these subjects, and we'll start over, deal? :saint:

WILLIS!?! Where have you been all these months.? Has Steve not expressed his views & and made them abundently clear to you by now.....so why are you rehashing?

But for my own edification, are you now a total "Calvinist " and not a "Hard Shell"? I really need to know....so if you'd be so kind ....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

WILLIS!?! Where have you been all these months? Has Steve not expressed his views & and made them abundantly clear to you by now.....so why are you rehashing?

But for my own edification, are you now a total "Calvinist " and not a "Hard Shell"? I really need to know....so if you'd be so kind ....

And if you are , what does that say for your eschatology stance? Like are you now a full blown Covenant Theology practitioner?

 

[Rippon]

You have posted how you reject The Church who Christ has died for...you did not feel comfortable fellowshipping in the church fellowship hall....no there are thousands of Christians in NJ...and they are all hiding from you:laugh:

We have
"turned you off" to religion????

When were you "turned onto religion?:laugh:

read your posts...you are critical of the churches, Cals, basically anyone who questions you and holds you accountable.....

have you ever even been a member of any church at all....where was it? who was the Pastor?

He has never encounted a bar he didn't like --but every church meets with his distain. He has a thousand excuses. Going beyond 15-20 minutes from his place is such a chore. He needs to humble himself and get with an assembly of believers and stick with them despite his quibbles. Nearly five years of lame excuses is too much. Trust me, there are believing congregations that the Lord has for him --the Primitive Baptists aren't the be-all and end-all.

 

[convicted1]

WILLIS!?! Where have you been all these months.? Has Steve not expressed his views & and made them abundently clear to you by now.....so why are you rehashing?

As I stated, I want to start afresh...like it's our first encounter. Maybe we can get a clearer undefstanding?

But for my own edification, are you now a total "Calvinist " and not a "Hard Shell"? I really need to know....so if you'd be so kind ....

Labels are just bulls' eyes...but I have zero problem being called a Calvinist. I can't...won't agree with time salvation...