Hell: Traditional or Conditional?

[convicted1]

The rich man was being in torments in the flames....

 

[DHK]

The rich man was being in torments in the flames....

Yes indeed.
From Strong's

αποολλυμι apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

His life was perishing, but not annihilated.
His life was dead (separated eternally from God), but not annihilated.
His life was marred, scarred in the flames, where the worm dies not (his conscience eternally bothering him.)
His life was indeed destroyed, but not annihilated. He would never again have a chance of true life with God, the giver of life.
He "lost" his life when he denied Christ.

 

[Van]

Why is the meaning that obvious?
Why must the English word "destruction" demand the SDA meaning of "annihilation"? Do you believe there may be other alternatives to the definition of this word?

I presented the obvious meaning. No one said destroy means annihilation. No one advocated SDA doctrine. Present your view.

 

[Van]

Was the rich man in Hades or Gehenna? Hades, so non germane. Anyone who says one view or the other should be presented dogmatically has left the rails.

 

[convicted1]

Rich man...tormented in flames...not burned up...not annihilated...

 

[DHK]

Was the rich man in Hades or Gehenna? Hades, so non germane. Anyone who says one view or the other should be presented dogmatically has left the rails.

Jesus made dogmatic statements about the "eternality" of hell.
Here is one of them:
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:[/FONT]

Which fire is prepared for the devil and his angels?
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/FONT]

Who else will be there suffering the same fate?
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/FONT]

It sounds fairly conclusive to me.
To base one's theology on Hell just on one word in one verse in the Bible, that has a questionable meaning at best, is to go against all the principles of hermeneutics that I know. You go against the totality of the Scriptural teaching of the doctrine of hell and the Lake of Fire.

 

[convicted1]

Jesus made dogmatic statements about the "eternality" of hell.
Here is one of them:
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:[/FONT]

Which fire is prepared for the devil and his angels?
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/FONT]

Who else will be there suffering the same fate?
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/FONT]

It sounds fairly conclusive to me.
To base one's theology on Hell just on one word in one verse in the Bible, that has a questionable meaning at best, is to go against all the principles of hermeneutics that I know. You go against the totality of the Scriptural teaching of the doctrine of hell and the Lake of Fire.

In fairness to Van, I don't think he's saying hell, or the lake of fire, isn't forever. I think he's stating that those who go there will be burned up and be no more. I hope I haven't stated his position on this subject wrongly. :saint:

 

[DHK]

In fairness to Van, I don't think he's saying hell, or the lake of fire, isn't forever. I think he's stating that those who go there will be burned up and be no more. I hope I haven't stated his position on this subject wrongly. :saint:

In post #17 Van says:

Hi Rolf, as far as I can tell, no one except me, posting of this thread has a clue as to what a conditionalist believes. At issue is the traditional belief that once a sinner is thrown into the lake of fire, he or she undergoes eternal conscience torment, versus those who say once God's perfect justice is satisfied, the person's conscience awareness ends, their body and soul being destroyed (killed.)

That IMO is annihilation. But just a few posts up he says "no one says anything about 'destroy' meaning annihilation."
--There seems to be a contradiction here. However his definition of a conditionalist is definitely that of one who believes in the doctrine of annihilation.

 

[convicted1]

In post #17 Van says:
That IMO is annihilation. But just a few posts up he says "no one says anything about 'destroy' meaning annihilation."
--There seems to be a contradiction here. However his definition of a conditionalist is definitely that of one who believes in the doctrine of annihilation.

Ooooooo.....that's something I saw, but I wasn't for sure what he was conveying in that post...

Would annihilation be considered orthodox, heterodox, or outright heretical? I think it fits outside biblical teaching, but could be wrong....

 

[Revmitchell]

Annihilation is heresy as is anything but eternal torment

 

[DHK]

Annihilation is heresy as is anything but eternal torment

I agree. ...

 

[DHK]

Here is the best unbiased overview that I could find:

http://www.theopedia.com/Annihilationism

Now consider:
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/FONT]
--This seems to be the key verse. Fear Him (that is God) who is able to "destroy" both soul and body in hell.
--Suppose those who believe in annihilation or Conditional hell were right. Then what would be the outcome?

Much of our theology would change. The old adage: "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die," would be true, and one would not even have to think of an afterlife. It may be painful for a short time but he would die. The ill-gotten gains of this sinful life--sex, fame, debauchery, sin in all of its enjoyment--why not? We only have one life to live. Tomorrow we die. Forget about the Lordship of Christ! Why be His servant, when I have the almighty dollar to enjoy.

You no longer can say: "But after this the judgement," for the judgment means nothing. The unsaved is going to do as he says: "I die." So what! There is no judgment to speak of. If that is all there is then justice isn't paid for at all.

In all my years of witnessing to others, many would gladly submit to the above scenario rather than the Lordship of Christ. Those are the ones that tell me they don't believe in eternity after death. When its over its over, they say. So they will live like they want. And they are right if annihilation is right; if conditional hell is right. There is no judgement for them. It will all be over. Life, existence, will be snuffed out.
No, this is not justice. This is paganism giving way to hedonism. Annihilation is an excuse for a sinful lifestyle. "Tomorrow we die." What a life! No judgement.

The very thought of this goes against the teaching of Mat.10:28, and that is, fear God.
I don't have to fear God if "tomorrow I die, and then I am annihilated."
But rather:
[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.[/FONT]

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is the best unbiased overview that I could find:

http://www.theopedia.com/Annihilationism

Now consider:
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/FONT]
--This seems to be the key verse. Fear Him (that is God) who is able to "destroy" both soul and body in hell.
--Suppose those who believe in annihilation or Conditional hell were right. Then what would be the outcome?

Much of our theology would change. The old adage: "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die," would be true, and one would not even have to think of an afterlife. It may be painful for a short time but he would die. The ill-gotten gains of this sinful life--sex, fame, debauchery, sin in all of its enjoyment--why not? We only have one life to live. Tomorrow we die. Forget about the Lordship of Christ! Why be His servant, when I have the almighty dollar to enjoy.

You no longer can say: "But after this the judgement," for the judgment means nothing. The unsaved is going to do as he says: "I die." So what! There is no judgment to speak of. If that is all there is then justice isn't paid for at all.

In all my years of witnessing to others, many would gladly submit to the above scenario rather than the Lordship of Christ. Those are the ones that tell me they don't believe in eternity after death. When its over its over, they say. So they will live like they want. And they are right if annihilation is right; if conditional hell is right. There is no judgement for them. It will all be over. Life, existence, will be snuffed out.
No, this is not justice. This is paganism giving way to hedonism. Annihilation is an excuse for a sinful lifestyle. "Tomorrow we die." What a life! No judgement.

The very thought of this goes against the teaching of Mat.10:28, and that is, fear God.
I don't have to fear God if "tomorrow I die, and then I am annihilated."
But rather:
[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.[/FONT]

Satan and the Demons will also be cast into lake of Fire, so would they also NOT be suffering etrnally?

And the SAME word used to describe the duration of heaven is used for hell, so how can heaven be forever, and yet hell is not?

 

[Van]

Trying to discuss theology is rather difficult when others misrepresent any view that differs from their own.

Is being a conditionalist the same as saying people who die immediately go to heaven or are annihilated. Nope, yet at least one poster asserted that was the view.

It is a waste of time to try to present views that differ, because of the dishonesty of others.

What does the phrase "conditional hell" refer to? Certainly, that is not a view being advocated. Yet it is tossed about as the view of conditionalists.

1) Hell is a poor translation of two words, Hades, where lost souls go before Christ's second coming. Gehenna, where lost souls go (into the lake of Fire) after the White throne judgment.

2) Does scripture teach lost souls undergo torment? Yes. Do conditionalists deny that lost souls undergo torment? No.

3) Do Satan and his cohorts undergo eternal torment in the lake of fire? Yes.

4) Is it a reasonable "assumption" that humans who go into the same lake of fire undergo that same fate, i.e. eternal torment? Yes. But is that the only view that is consistent with all scripture? No.

Bottom line, there seems to be no one who knows what conditionalists believe, but several want to present a heresy as if that was the belief.

To repeat the obvious, if a person goes to Hades, they are not annihilated, they suffer torment in differing degrees, because for some the situation is more "tolerable" than for others. Once Christ returns, all of the souls in Hades will be resurrected (the resurrection of the lost) and will face judgement. All those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life, will be tossed into the lake of fire. They will undergo torment sufficient to satisfy God's perfect justice. If that is eternal so be it. If, God's justice is satisfied with torment of a duration fixed by the sin burden of the lost person, and once that torment is completed, the soul and body are destroyed, so be it.

And again, anyone who claims that view is not just as supported as eternal torment has gone off the rails.

 

[Revmitchell]

Anything other than eternal torment is heresy. Annihilation at any given point is heresy.

 

[Rippon]

Is it a reasonable "assumption" that humans who go into the same lake of fire undergo that same fate, i.e. eternal torment? Yes. But is that the only view that is consistent with all scripture? No.

Huh? Eternal torment is the condition of all those individuals who are not in glory with the Lord. There is no alternative view that is consistent with Scripture.

They will undergo torment sufficient to satisfy God's perfect justice. If that is eternal so be it.

"If"? There is no "if" about it.

If, God's justice is satisfied with torment of a duration fixed by the sin burden of the lost person, and once that torment is completed, the soul and body are destroyed, so be it.

You should be run out of town on the rail with your liberal stance.

 

[Yeshua1]

Trying to discuss theology is rather difficult when others misrepresent any view that differs from their own.

Is being a conditionalist the same as saying people who die immediately go to heaven or are annihilated. Nope, yet at least one poster asserted that was the view.

It is a waste of time to try to present views that differ, because of the dishonesty of others.

What does the phrase "conditional hell" refer to? Certainly, that is not a view being advocated. Yet it is tossed about as the view of conditionalists.

1) Hell is a poor translation of two words, Hades, where lost souls go before Christ's second coming. Gehenna, where lost souls go (into the lake of Fire) after the White throne judgment.

2) Does scripture teach lost souls undergo torment? Yes. Do conditionalists deny that lost souls undergo torment? No.

3) Do Satan and his cohorts undergo eternal torment in the lake of fire? Yes.

4) Is it a reasonable "assumption" that humans who go into the same lake of fire undergo that same fate, i.e. eternal torment? Yes. But is that the only view that is consistent with all scripture? No.

Bottom line, there seems to be no one who knows what conditionalists believe, but several want to present a heresy as if that was the belief.

To repeat the obvious, if a person goes to Hades, they are not annihilated, they suffer torment in differing degrees, because for some the situation is more "tolerable" than for others. Once Christ returns, all of the souls in Hades will be resurrected (the resurrection of the lost) and will face judgement. All those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life, will be tossed into the lake of fire. They will undergo torment sufficient to satisfy God's perfect justice. If that is eternal so be it. If, God's justice is satisfied with torment of a duration fixed by the sin burden of the lost person, and once that torment is completed, the soul and body are destroyed, so be it.

And again, anyone who claims that view is not just as supported as eternal torment has gone off the rails.

If heaven is an eternal state, why would Hell not be also though?

 

[DHK]

To repeat the obvious, if a person goes to Hades, they are not annihilated, they suffer torment in differing degrees, because for some the situation is more "tolerable" than for others. Once Christ returns, all of the souls in Hades will be resurrected (the resurrection of the lost) and will face judgement. All those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life, will be tossed into the lake of fire. They will undergo torment sufficient to satisfy God's perfect justice. If that is eternal so be it. If, God's justice is satisfied with torment of a duration fixed by the sin burden of the lost person, and once that torment is completed, the soul and body are destroyed, so be it.

And again, anyone who claims that view is not just as supported as eternal torment has gone off the rails.

First, everyone who goes to Hades will go to the Lake of Fire. There are no second chances. How can you state: "Those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of Life will be tossed into the lake of fire," without at the same time inferring that there will be some names in the book of Life and will not be tossed in the Lake of Fire?

I agree that somehow there will be varying degrees of torment. Jesus seemed to indicate that in Matthew 11. But he never indicated anything less than eternal torment.

You do suggest annihilation. This is the first time you have admitted to eternal torment. I did read what theopedia had to say. I even gave the link to it. It seemed to indicate that both groups: annihilationists and those who believe in a conditional hell end up believing the same thing--body and soul are eventually annihilated. At least that is my understanding of what I have read.
You are tinkering with God's justice suggesting the fulfillment of God's justice may be eternal for some but not eternal for others. How do you presume on the justice of God in such a way? He is God. He can do as He wishes according to His divine attributes even if it offends our feelings.
If it were not for the grace of God you and I would be in Hell right now. Do I deserve any more?

 

[The Biblicist]

Trying to discuss theology is rather difficult when others misrepresent any view that differs from their own.

Is being a conditionalist the same as saying people who die immediately go to heaven or are annihilated. Nope, yet at least one poster asserted that was the view.

It is a waste of time to try to present views that differ, because of the dishonesty of others.

What does the phrase "conditional hell" refer to? Certainly, that is not a view being advocated. Yet it is tossed about as the view of conditionalists.

1) Hell is a poor translation of two words, Hades, where lost souls go before Christ's second coming. Gehenna, where lost souls go (into the lake of Fire) after the White throne judgment.

2) Does scripture teach lost souls undergo torment? Yes. Do conditionalists deny that lost souls undergo torment? No.

3) Do Satan and his cohorts undergo eternal torment in the lake of fire? Yes.

4) Is it a reasonable "assumption" that humans who go into the same lake of fire undergo that same fate, i.e. eternal torment? Yes. But is that the only view that is consistent with all scripture? No.

Bottom line, there seems to be no one who knows what conditionalists believe, but several want to present a heresy as if that was the belief.

To repeat the obvious, if a person goes to Hades, they are not annihilated, they suffer torment in differing degrees, because for some the situation is more "tolerable" than for others. Once Christ returns, all of the souls in Hades will be resurrected (the resurrection of the lost) and will face judgement. All those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life, will be tossed into the lake of fire. They will undergo torment sufficient to satisfy God's perfect justice. If that is eternal so be it. If, God's justice is satisfied with torment of a duration fixed by the sin burden of the lost person, and once that torment is completed, the soul and body are destroyed, so be it.

And again, anyone who claims that view is not just as supported as eternal torment has gone off the rails.

The real issue here is whether or not the immaterial part of man continues to exist forever? If it does then obviously neither hades or Gehenna cause it to cease and both are a place of continuing conscious torment. If it does not then something causes it to cease. Either death causes it to cease or hades or Gehenna cause it to cease.

Matthew 10:28 denies that death causes it to cease. Matthew 10:28 also denies that hades causes it to cease because it is to be cast into Gehenna. In Revelation 20 both death and hades are cast into Gehenna.

However, we know that Gehenna did not cause the false prophet and beast to cease (Rev. 19:20; 20:10).

Finally the word translated "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 is the very same word translated "lost" and "lose" in the very same chapter by the very same speaker. It obviously does not mean anihilate unless Jesus is sent to the anihilated house of Israel (Mt. 10:6) or unless he rewards anihilated people at His coming?? It means to "render useless" and etymologically "to loose away". Israel in its lost condition is rendered useless to glorify God. That part of your life lived for self is rendered useless for the glory of God in regard to reward.

Hatred may be the cause of killing the body but that hatred cannot kill the soul as the soul continues to exist after the body is dead. But God can RENDER USELESS such hatred in gehenna because it cannot even kill the body in gehenna or anything else.

So the real question is how do you view the soul of man? Does it continue in existence or is it terminated in Gehenna?

 

[Van]

I see we can count on Revmitchell to claim views that differ from his are heresy.

Mr. Rippon claims scripture requires eternal torment, but offers no support. Thus an assumption is put forth as doctrine.

Those that go to Hades/Gehenna go into "eternal punishment" in "eternal darkness." The question is "does eternal punishment require eternal torment or can eternal separation from God fulfill "eternal punishment." The "eternal torment" crowd say no, but again it is there assumption without scriptural support.

DHK tries to say my paraphrase of Revelation 20:15 somehow suggests a second chance, which again is heresy. How can anyone discuss theology when false charges are made again and again by the defenders of eternal torment.

Do Conditionalists believe in a "conditional hell?" Nope, yet that false charge is repeated.

Next, I am charged with "tinkering with God's justice system" when I say whatever God's justice system requires. So once again, one false charge after another, with no honest discussion of alternate views and their basis in scripture.

Does scripture say God treats everyone the same? Nope. Those that say scripture does are unstudied and mistaken.

But Biblicist is spot on when he says the issue with whether the soul exists forever or can be destroyed in Gehenna. Again, God can destroy the body and soul in Gehenna. No verse says any soul is destroyed in Hades.

But then "destroy" is said not to mean kill, terminate, end existence. And verses were selected to demonstrate that point. However just as many verses demonstrate kill is the idea, such as the babies Heriod had killed, trying to kill Jesus.

At its core, all the support from eternal torment are based on multiple assumptions. To assert otherwise is dishonest.