Featured If Jesus Died On The Cross For You...

Sadly, those that push their mistaken views, do not actually answer the questions asked.

Here is what I said: You do not automatically get saved when you put your faith in Christ. You get saved when and if God credits your faith as righteousness.

Was this issue addressed or sidestepped?

Here is what was said: "On my own part believing in Jesus Christ is one of the easiest things I know how to do." So I was address the point in our life when we (for our own part) began "believing in Jesus Christ." But rather than address my question, a poster quibbled about how I said it.

Still waiting for an actual response.

 

But.....
You didn't ask a question. JonC maybe hasn't been logged on to answer you, but I specifically ASKED you....since you're spewing thus "put your faith" as biblical,

Quote a bible verse that says it. It's that simple. You can shut the mouths of every opponent with a simple scripture quotation.

I'm not quibbling about HOW you said anything. I made an actual request for you to support it with scripture.

You made a claim, I could have simply said it's unbiblical. That was your tactic. You never addressed anything from scripture, you simply made an assertion that your view is biblical

Then you come off with that drivel about putting your faith. It's meaningless jargon, Van. Useless drivel. It's not found anywhere in scripture. That's my rebuttal.

Now the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate any biblical support for it.

 

1) Why not answer the question? Are you saved automatically when you started believing in Jesus? Still waiting for an answer.

2) The question was not addressed to JonC, but to HankD, see post 59.

3) I was presenting my take on HankD's statement, I made no claim that the phrase is found in scripture. You are simply trying to sidetrack the discussion with meaningless drivel.

Will my question be answered or sidestepped? Time will tell and truth will be revealed.

 

HankD

No...I would not ever question God at all.
I asked you those questions hank because when you offer the verses you offered I said I do not think you can consistently hold your position.

it is not a trick or a gotcha type thing. I think if you actually type out or attempt to answer the questions I asked you, I believe you will see where you cannot maintain these contradictory ideas....

On one hand The cross has actually propitiated or turned away God's wrath, and yet many will still experience the wrath that you say has been turned away from them.
The theology I and others hold can supply biblical answers to each of these questions without contradiction.

This idea is a contradiction, and the idea that faith or lack of is the issue rather than sin is not found to be the case.

is lack of faith sin? If in your scheme God's wrath has been turned away even from lack of faith, why is this then an issue?"

Sure He does. Let's not blame tools like a good systematic theology ,as if that keeps us from truth.I think that God has given pastors and teachers to the church as gifts to teach and write helpful things for us.

Are you saying God has to wait and see who has faith by themselves, then he chooses them after they choose Him. This seems to contradict your own post.

Saving faith and repentance are God's gifts to sinners who he has designed to save.

Here we agree....

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

I can see why they say what they do. My position is similar in many ways. That is an interesting discussion for sure.
as I said to PT in the other thread....we are all along a spectrum of beliefs and understanding.

Hank....I do not need to have the last word. You are always respectful when you post and give some support for your views:thumbsup:

I would like to continue on with this discussion as I would ask you to answer each of the questions I asked, in your own words, with scriptural support, or links you believe support your view.:wavey:

 

dude2

I post at lunch /dinner or the end of the driving day.
I will leave the "gobbly-gook" to you as you make those silly rhyming noises and make believe the "spirit' is moving on you with revelatory utterances.

Dude I cannot open your posts after you claimed outer body experiences or I would wind up in the ditch....:laugh:

the scripture speaks of naïve or ignorant persons, it speaks of willfully ignorant persons as well. To be around the church for a long time and not know these things speaks to the later category.
Paul and Peter urge the readers to not be ignorant of scriptural truth several times.

You are not the only person to claim this, and it is not new to me.
Sorry Dude you are not unique. You are mistaken however.
All Christians are Spirit filled....or they are not Christians. A spirit filled Christian is word centered and about scriptures speaking of Jesus person and work.
it is not fleshly claims to extraordinary spiritual experiences and anecdotes, that finds no place for sound doctrine.

And I still caution you about this!

I

You have not gotten any special revelation that we do not get Dude....sorry.

While that sounds kind and loving I am afraid it is not so.
If I am guilty of steering people away from truth I will certainly be judged.
if you are found to be a liar boasting of false gifts and experiences you will be judged.

Not everyone who says Lord , Lord, will be making the journey upwards on the last day.

Everyone knows we will be fully glorified at that time. I do not think posts made here will be brought to mind. We will be busy in worship and service to God.

Interesting that those cast away in Mt 7....claimed to be spirit filled, and "moving" in the gifts as you have posted in times past.....that is the other side of this coin , isn't it?

Again...that sounds nice, but it can also be a covering for sinful neglect to the doctrine we are commanded to grow in and defend.

message boards are voluntary and a place for discussion and debate. No one forces you to read or respond. You open and read the posts you oppose what amny consider to be gospel truth and casually dismiss it as if it does not matter, which is grave error from what I can see.

Well ....we all stand or fall in light of what is biblically revealed....

 

Saved automatically? Depends on what you mean by automatic. Does God automatically credit a man's faith as righteousness? Yes.

He made the promise, and He does it. He doesn't have to take a few minutes to analyze the faith in a laboratory, under a faith-o-scope.

He who believes upon Christ has passed from death to life.

And it is to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly. That man's faith is credited as righteousness.

A righteousness which comes by faith

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by believing what you heard?


Sorry about the mistake between Hank and Jon. I beg your forgiveness.

Now answer....where do you get this "put your faith" nonsense?

 

:laugh: :smilewinkgrin: :wavey:

Glad to hear you are safe and well! Love our talks! Can't wait to get to heaven and sit around the tree of life and find out how badly we were both off in what we believed! If I can't meet and have coffee with you until then, so be it. But the day of reunion is sooner than later, and you will be one person I seek out! God bless and thanks for schooling me in the truth, as you see it to be!

 

Let me repeat my answer. The idea of us choosing to put our faith in or on or toward Jesus, rather than in our works or some other mechanism to achieve salvation is what I was saying. And to repeat, when we initially trusted in Jesus for our salvation is when we "put our faith" in Jesus.

I disagree that God must credit everyone's faith in Christ as righteousness because He promised it. Again, you claim the 2d and 3d soils were saved, but others, myself included, believe they were never saved, that God did not credit their superficial and half hearted faith as righteousness, and so they fell way. And again, Matthew 7 speaks of folks who said they believed, crying Lord, Lord, yet were never saved. Why not? Because God did not credit their superficial or half hearted faith as righteousness.

 

Then you posit "non-saving" faith that is apart from works, and a "saving" faith that is not apart from works.

That's contrary to scripture. The very commands to mature, grow in grace, work out your salvation, etc NECESSARILY assumes the potential that it might not happen.

Why would God command something that's already going to happen? He doesn't.

Your problem is that you believe works are a necessary component in the scheme of eternal life, and you can't bring yourself to even consider that faith alone is just that - ALONE

 

But you said the bible teaches, or the bible says, or some other piece of nonsense.

I want to know where does scripture ever say something like "putting your faith" ???


The fact is, you made it up. Then you claimed it came from scripture. Then you were called on it, and tried to deflect from it by crying about how nobody wants to answer your questions. And now you want to start qualifying what you said.

When the simple fact remains that you come here with made up jargon and try to pass it off as scriptural truth

 

What has gotten into you, JamesL? Your last two posts do not reflect what I said or believe!

1) I do believe a person can have faith in Jesus to some degree, like the second and third soils of Matthew 13, yet not be saved.

2) I do not believe works must be done to turn faith into saving faith. That is not "faith alone."

3) No quote will be forthcoming where I said scripture says "put your faith" explicitly. But the idea is a scriptural concept and refers to when we initially trust in Jesus.

If you continue to misrepresent my views to avoid actual discussion of Easy Believism, the truth will be obvious to all.

Matthew 7 speaks of folks who said they believed, crying Lord, Lord, yet were never saved. Why not? Because God did not credit their superficial or half hearted faith as righteousness.

Folks, in a nutshell, some believe that if we believe in Jesus, no matter how superficially or half-heatedly, we are saved forever. But this view disregards Matthew 13, where some people receive the gospel with joy, but then fall away because their faith was superficial, i.e. having no root, and others who initially believed but still treasured other worldly things allowed worldly concerns to terminate their belief. Scripture says, Romans 4:4-5, that it is God alone who either credits our faith as righteousness, or not. Thus we are saved through faith, as credited by God, and not as we ourselves might credit our faith.

 

Question. Would this be, "saving faith," and or, "the faith," however one wants to put it, whether it is believed or not?

how that God was in Christ -- a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation, 2 Cor. 5:19 YLT

Only worthily of the good news of the Christ conduct ye yourselves, that, whether having come and seen you, whether being absent I may hear of the things concerning you, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one soul, striving together for the faith of the good news, and not terrified in anything by those opposing, which to them indeed is a token of destruction, and to you of salvation, and that from God; because to you it was granted, on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also on behalf of him to suffer; the same conflict having, such as ye saw in me, and now hear of in me. Phil. 1:27-30 YLT

Is the 2 Cor passage the faith of the good news, we have been granted, to believe in, concerning Jesus Christ.

 

The charge of non belief.
MB

 

I believe in the Grace of our God however Grace or no Grace no one is saved with out Belief in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God
MB

 

Sin is only forgiven when we repent of that sin . Christ died for the sins of the world that the world might be saved. Not will be saved. If you would read Jn.3;16 know this to be true.
MB

 

You addressed questions to me quoting me and I answered you.
MB

 

God in the death of Christ has chosen to freely forgive though A:: sin of the elect, and theose chosen by Him to get saved will come to Jesus to receive salvation, so his death was a real salvation, not a "hope so/poyentially maybe some will come" proposition!