If Jesus Died On The Cross For You...

[Van]

Sadly, those that push their mistaken views, do not actually answer the questions asked.

Here is what I said: You do not automatically get saved when you put your faith in Christ. You get saved when and if God credits your faith as righteousness.

Was this issue addressed or sidestepped?

Here is what was said: "On my own part believing in Jesus Christ is one of the easiest things I know how to do." So I was address the point in our life when we (for our own part) began "believing in Jesus Christ." But rather than address my question, a poster quibbled about how I said it.

Still waiting for an actual response.

 

[JamesL]

Sadly, those that push their mistaken views, do not actually answer the questions asked.

Here is what I said: You do not automatically get saved when you put your faith in Christ. You get saved when and if God credits your faith as righteousness.

Was this issue addressed or sidestepped?

But.....
You didn't ask a question. JonC maybe hasn't been logged on to answer you, but I specifically ASKED you....since you're spewing thus "put your faith" as biblical,

Quote a bible verse that says it. It's that simple. You can shut the mouths of every opponent with a simple scripture quotation.

Here is what was said: "On my own part believing in Jesus Christ is one of the easiest things I know how to do." So I was address the point in our life when we (for our own part) began "believing in Jesus Christ." But rather than address my question, a poster quibbled about how I said it.

Still waiting for an actual response.

I'm not quibbling about HOW you said anything. I made an actual request for you to support it with scripture.

You made a claim, I could have simply said it's unbiblical. That was your tactic. You never addressed anything from scripture, you simply made an assertion that your view is biblical

Then you come off with that drivel about putting your faith. It's meaningless jargon, Van. Useless drivel. It's not found anywhere in scripture. That's my rebuttal.

Now the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate any biblical support for it.

 

[Van]

1) Why not answer the question? Are you saved automatically when you started believing in Jesus? Still waiting for an answer.

2) The question was not addressed to JonC, but to HankD, see post 59.

3) I was presenting my take on HankD's statement, I made no claim that the phrase is found in scripture. You are simply trying to sidetrack the discussion with meaningless drivel.

Will my question be answered or sidestepped? Time will tell and truth will be revealed.

 

[Iconoclast]

HankD

You are questioning God not me brother iconoclast.

No...I would not ever question God at all.
I asked you those questions hank because when you offer the verses you offered I said I do not think you can consistently hold your position.

it is not a trick or a gotcha type thing. I think if you actually type out or attempt to answer the questions I asked you, I believe you will see where you cannot maintain these contradictory ideas....

On one hand The cross has actually propitiated or turned away God's wrath, and yet many will still experience the wrath that you say has been turned away from them.
The theology I and others hold can supply biblical answers to each of these questions without contradiction.

If He wants to propitiate the sins of the whole world and then consign those without faith to a Godless eternity, well, that's His business,

This idea is a contradiction, and the idea that faith or lack of is the issue rather than sin is not found to be the case.

is lack of faith sin? If in your scheme God's wrath has been turned away even from lack of faith, why is this then an issue?"

He does what He pleases without referring to our systematic theologies.

Sure He does. Let's not blame tools like a good systematic theology ,as if that keeps us from truth.I think that God has given pastors and teachers to the church as gifts to teach and write helpful things for us.

The Ephesians passage simply refers to His choice to show those with faith

Are you saying God has to wait and see who has faith by themselves, then he chooses them after they choose Him. This seems to contradict your own post.

Saving faith and repentance are God's gifts to sinners who he has designed to save.

Faith or not He does all the choosing.

Here we agree....

Whether faith or no, none of us (the seed of fallen Adam) deserve His mercy. It just so happens He chooses to show mercy to those of the faith.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

BTW, many calvinists would disagree with one of your points in that they would teach "double predestination" that the lost are/were pro-actively chosen for damnation and not simply "passed by".

I can see why they say what they do. My position is similar in many ways. That is an interesting discussion for sure.
as I said to PT in the other thread....we are all along a spectrum of beliefs and understanding.

Take the last word brother, I am through.

Hank....I do not need to have the last word. You are always respectful when you post and give some support for your views:thumbsup:

I would like to continue on with this discussion as I would ask you to answer each of the questions I asked, in your own words, with scriptural support, or links you believe support your view.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

dude2

I hope you were pulled off the road when you rattled off all that gobbly-gook,as I'd hate to think of you driving that 18 wheeler down the Interstate with on hand on the wheel and the on the pad texting you little heart out!

I post at lunch /dinner or the end of the driving day.
I will leave the "gobbly-gook" to you as you make those silly rhyming noises and make believe the "spirit' is moving on you with revelatory utterances.

Dude I cannot open your posts after you claimed outer body experiences or I would wind up in the ditch....:laugh:

Thanks for the lesson in spirit-I-conics. It was helpful, but I choose to remain "willfully ignorant" as you so eloquently pointed out.

the scripture speaks of naïve or ignorant persons, it speaks of willfully ignorant persons as well. To be around the church for a long time and not know these things speaks to the later category.
Paul and Peter urge the readers to not be ignorant of scriptural truth several times.

However, I hold firm to what I shared, just as I hold firm to being a spirit-filled Baptist. A new creature to some in the church, like you.

You are not the only person to claim this, and it is not new to me.
Sorry Dude you are not unique. You are mistaken however.
All Christians are Spirit filled....or they are not Christians. A spirit filled Christian is word centered and about scriptures speaking of Jesus person and work.
it is not fleshly claims to extraordinary spiritual experiences and anecdotes, that finds no place for sound doctrine.

We have gone around the globe before on issues, like tongues, and while you put up some convincing material, I have to trust in the God, who has given me spiritual utterance within my spirit to understand the Scriptures,

And I still caution you about this!

too, and what you say may be fine for you ... but I choose to stick with the explanation He gave me when it came to spiritual things!

I

You have not gotten any special revelation that we do not get Dude....sorry.

know you and I (and some others) march to a different beat ... but it will not keep you out of heaven any more than it will keep me from entering in!

While that sounds kind and loving I am afraid it is not so.
If I am guilty of steering people away from truth I will certainly be judged.
if you are found to be a liar boasting of false gifts and experiences you will be judged.

Not everyone who says Lord , Lord, will be making the journey upwards on the last day.

However, along with me, there is a ton of folks on this board, including you, who will be seriously enlightened once they get there and discover how far off base they were in trying to interpret doctrine and scripture.

Everyone knows we will be fully glorified at that time. I do not think posts made here will be brought to mind. We will be busy in worship and service to God.

And some of these folks will be punished for standing so tall and proud on their beliefs with stiff-necked bravado, to the point that it actually drove people from the kingdom, or kept them from coming in the first place. Now if that happened, you might prove the elect thing here on earth, but find that God really meant ALL, and WHOSOEVER, and EVERYONE that come be saved, and preset number before the heavens and earth were formed and set in motion!

Interesting that those cast away in Mt 7....claimed to be spirit filled, and "moving" in the gifts as you have posted in times past.....that is the other side of this coin , isn't it?

I don't want to be responsible for the blood of another, which is why I am not a die-hard when it comes to these doctrinal issues.

Again...that sounds nice, but it can also be a covering for sinful neglect to the doctrine we are commanded to grow in and defend.

You know, the issues that drive so many of you crazy to argue to death over? But if some of you are willing to die on the hill for what you think to be the truth, so be it. Just don't push down the throat of others to believe or be viewed as outcasts, heretics, and worse!

message boards are voluntary and a place for discussion and debate. No one forces you to read or respond. You open and read the posts you oppose what amny consider to be gospel truth and casually dismiss it as if it does not matter, which is grave error from what I can see.

Just think about this Icon, maybe it will be you, who arrives in heaven and while facing judgement by Jesus, called a heretic, and docked a few gems for your finger ring? Not saying it will hapen, just sayin'! :flower:

In closing, brother .... your health and well being mean a lot to me, so please remember to pull over and respond, don't text and drive/if you want to be alive!

Well ....we all stand or fall in light of what is biblically revealed....

 

[JamesL]

1) Why not answer the question? Are you saved automatically when you started believing in Jesus? Still waiting for an answer.

2) The question was not addressed to JonC, but to HankD, see post 59.

3) I was presenting my take on HankD's statement, I made no claim that the phrase is found in scripture. You are simply trying to sidetrack the discussion with meaningless drivel.

Will my question be answered or sidestepped? Time will tell and truth will be revealed.

Saved automatically? Depends on what you mean by automatic. Does God automatically credit a man's faith as righteousness? Yes.

He made the promise, and He does it. He doesn't have to take a few minutes to analyze the faith in a laboratory, under a faith-o-scope.

He who believes upon Christ has passed from death to life.

And it is to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly. That man's faith is credited as righteousness.

A righteousness which comes by faith

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by believing what you heard?


Sorry about the mistake between Hank and Jon. I beg your forgiveness.

Now answer....where do you get this "put your faith" nonsense?

 

[righteousdude2]

dude2



I post at lunch /dinner or the end of the driving day.
I will leave the "gobbly-gook" to you as you make those silly rhyming noises and make believe the "spirit' is moving on you with revelatory utterances.

Dude I cannot open your posts after you claimed outer body experiences or I would wind up in the ditch....:laugh:


the scripture speaks of naïve or ignorant persons, it speaks of willfully ignorant persons as well. To be around the church for a long time and not know these things speaks to the later category.
Paul and Peter urge the readers to not be ignorant of scriptural truth several times.



You are not the only person to claim this, and it is not new to me.
Sorry Dude you are not unique. You are mistaken however.
All Christians are Spirit filled....or they are not Christians. A spirit filled Christian is word centered and about scriptures speaking of Jesus person and work.
it is not fleshly claims to extraordinary spiritual experiences and anecdotes, that finds no place for sound doctrine.

And I still caution you about this!

I

You have not gotten any special revelation that we do not get Dude....sorry.



While that sounds kind and loving I am afraid it is not so.
If I am guilty of steering people away from truth I will certainly be judged.
if you are found to be a liar boasting of false gifts and experiences you will be judged.

Not everyone who says Lord , Lord, will be making the journey upwards on the last day.



Everyone knows we will be fully glorified at that time. I do not think posts made here will be brought to mind. We will be busy in worship and service to God.




Interesting that those cast away in Mt 7....claimed to be spirit filled, and "moving" in the gifts as you have posted in times past.....that is the other side of this coin , isn't it?


Again...that sounds nice, but it can also be a covering for sinful neglect to the doctrine we are commanded to grow in and defend.



message boards are voluntary and a place for discussion and debate. No one forces you to read or respond. You open and read the posts you oppose what amny consider to be gospel truth and casually dismiss it as if it does not matter, which is grave error from what I can see.



Well ....we all stand or fall in light of what is biblically revealed....

:laugh: :smilewinkgrin: :wavey:

Glad to hear you are safe and well! Love our talks! Can't wait to get to heaven and sit around the tree of life and find out how badly we were both off in what we believed! If I can't meet and have coffee with you until then, so be it. But the day of reunion is sooner than later, and you will be one person I seek out! God bless and thanks for schooling me in the truth, as you see it to be!

 

[Van]

Now answer....where do you get this "put your faith" nonsense?

Let me repeat my answer. The idea of us choosing to put our faith in or on or toward Jesus, rather than in our works or some other mechanism to achieve salvation is what I was saying. And to repeat, when we initially trusted in Jesus for our salvation is when we "put our faith" in Jesus.

I disagree that God must credit everyone's faith in Christ as righteousness because He promised it. Again, you claim the 2d and 3d soils were saved, but others, myself included, believe they were never saved, that God did not credit their superficial and half hearted faith as righteousness, and so they fell way. And again, Matthew 7 speaks of folks who said they believed, crying Lord, Lord, yet were never saved. Why not? Because God did not credit their superficial or half hearted faith as righteousness.

 

[JamesL]

Let me repeat my answer. The idea of us choosing to put our faith in or on or toward Jesus, rather than in our works or some other mechanism to achieve salvation is what I was saying. And to repeat, when we initially trusted in Jesus for our salvation is when we "put our faith" in Jesus.

I disagree that God must credit everyone's faith in Christ as righteousness because He promised it. Again, you claim the 2d and 3d soils were saved, but others, myself included, believe they were never saved, that God did not credit their superficial and half hearted faith as righteousness, and so they fell way. And again, Matthew 7 speaks of folks who said they believed, crying Lord, Lord, yet were never saved. Why not? Because God did not credit their superficial or half hearted faith as righteousness.

Then you posit "non-saving" faith that is apart from works, and a "saving" faith that is not apart from works.

That's contrary to scripture. The very commands to mature, grow in grace, work out your salvation, etc NECESSARILY assumes the potential that it might not happen.

Why would God command something that's already going to happen? He doesn't.

Your problem is that you believe works are a necessary component in the scheme of eternal life, and you can't bring yourself to even consider that faith alone is just that - ALONE

 

[JamesL]

Let me repeat my answer. The idea of us choosing to put our faith in or on or toward Jesus, rather than in our works or some other mechanism to achieve salvation is what I was saying. And to repeat, when we initially trusted in Jesus for our salvation is when we "put our faith" in Jesus.

But you said the bible teaches, or the bible says, or some other piece of nonsense.

I want to know where does scripture ever say something like "putting your faith" ???


The fact is, you made it up. Then you claimed it came from scripture. Then you were called on it, and tried to deflect from it by crying about how nobody wants to answer your questions. And now you want to start qualifying what you said.

When the simple fact remains that you come here with made up jargon and try to pass it off as scriptural truth

 

[Van]

What has gotten into you, JamesL? Your last two posts do not reflect what I said or believe!

1) I do believe a person can have faith in Jesus to some degree, like the second and third soils of Matthew 13, yet not be saved.

2) I do not believe works must be done to turn faith into saving faith. That is not "faith alone."

3) No quote will be forthcoming where I said scripture says "put your faith" explicitly. But the idea is a scriptural concept and refers to when we initially trust in Jesus.

If you continue to misrepresent my views to avoid actual discussion of Easy Believism, the truth will be obvious to all.

Matthew 7 speaks of folks who said they believed, crying Lord, Lord, yet were never saved. Why not? Because God did not credit their superficial or half hearted faith as righteousness.

Folks, in a nutshell, some believe that if we believe in Jesus, no matter how superficially or half-heatedly, we are saved forever. But this view disregards Matthew 13, where some people receive the gospel with joy, but then fall away because their faith was superficial, i.e. having no root, and others who initially believed but still treasured other worldly things allowed worldly concerns to terminate their belief. Scripture says, Romans 4:4-5, that it is God alone who either credits our faith as righteousness, or not. Thus we are saved through faith, as credited by God, and not as we ourselves might credit our faith.

 

[percho]

Then you posit "non-saving" faith that is apart from works, and a "saving" faith that is not apart from works.

That's contrary to scripture. The very commands to mature, grow in grace, work out your salvation, etc NECESSARILY assumes the potential that it might not happen.

Why would God command something that's already going to happen? He doesn't.

Your problem is that you believe works are a necessary component in the scheme of eternal life, and you can't bring yourself to even consider that faith alone is just that - ALONE

Question. Would this be, "saving faith," and or, "the faith," however one wants to put it, whether it is believed or not?

how that God was in Christ -- a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation, 2 Cor. 5:19 YLT

Only worthily of the good news of the Christ conduct ye yourselves, that, whether having come and seen you, whether being absent I may hear of the things concerning you, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one soul, striving together for the faith of the good news, and not terrified in anything by those opposing, which to them indeed is a token of destruction, and to you of salvation, and that from God; because to you it was granted, on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also on behalf of him to suffer; the same conflict having, such as ye saw in me, and now hear of in me. Phil. 1:27-30 YLT

Is the 2 Cor passage the faith of the good news, we have been granted, to believe in, concerning Jesus Christ.

 

[MB]

I am curious to how you’d answer the following objections that are often asked in regards to this topic: If Jesus paid your “sin debt” on the Cross, then why must the Holy Spirit begin to convict men of their sinful condition(s) and their need for a savior? If Jesus died for my sins, as a payment in full, then what charge is there against me regardless of my belief in Christ?

The charge of non belief.
MB

 

[MB]

...could you still die and go to hell?

Did Jesus die on the cross to give you a "chance" to go to heaven? Or did He die on the cross to "ensure" that you go to heaven?

Yes, Jesus died on that cross to serve as the sacrificial lamb for sin. My sin! Not "your sin" but "my sin". Yes, He died on the cross for "your sin" but that's between "you" and Him.

Once completed and the sin debt paid..., the Holy Spirit then began to convict men of their sinful condition(s) and their need for a savior. The door was opened. As the Lord knew from eon's past for whom He was going to call to the knowledge of His saving Grace..., and then accept them into His everlasting presence..., how could we possibly then even have a remote chance of ending up with eternal punishment?

Yes, we might backslide and turn our backs on the Lord and possibly end up dying in that condition..., but once our Lord has forgiven us of that original sinful condition and He wiped the slate clean..., how could we possibly undue that?

We are saved by His Grace. Then, He continues with us the result of His Grace! Accordingly, there is nothing we can do to "earn" any additional "favors" from Him. There is absolutely nothing we can do for Him. He will use us when it pleases Him.

So, if Jesus died on the cross that day for "me" could I still die and go to hell?

No way!

I believe in the Grace of our God however Grace or no Grace no one is saved with out Belief in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God
MB

 

[JonC]

The charge of non belief.
MB

But then you only have two options. Either non-belief is not a sin, or it is a sin but was not covered by the atoning work of Jesus Christ. If it is not a sin, then why even be concerned … you are blameless at birth and the "charge" is meaningless. If it is a sin not covered by the Atonement, then on what basis is it forgiven?

 

[MB]

But then you only have two options. Either non-belief is not a sin, or it is a sin but was not covered by the atoning work of Jesus Christ. If it is not a sin, then why even be concerned … you are blameless at birth and the "charge" is meaningless. If it is a sin not covered by the Atonement, then on what basis is it forgiven?

Sin is only forgiven when we repent of that sin . Christ died for the sins of the world that the world might be saved. Not will be saved. If you would read Jn.3;16 know this to be true.
MB

 

[JonC]

Sin is only forgiven when we repent of that sin . Christ died for the sins of the world that the world might be saved. Not will be saved. If you would read Jn.3;16 know this to be true.
MB

I have no problem with John 3:16...my question was directed at the first post (mine was the second).

 

[MB]

I have no problem with John 3:16...my question was directed at the first post (mine was the second).

You addressed questions to me quoting me and I answered you.
MB

 

[JonC]

Did Jesus die on the cross to give you a "chance" to go to heaven? Or did He die on the cross to "ensure" that you go to heaven?......Once completed and the sin debt paid...

I am curious to how you’d answer the following objections that are often asked in regards to this topic: If Jesus paid your “sin debt” on the Cross, then why must the Holy Spirit begin to convict men of their sinful condition(s) and their need for a savior? If Jesus died for my sins, as a payment in full, then what charge is there against me regardless of my belief in Christ?

The charge of non belief. MB

But then you only have two options. Either non-belief is not a sin, or it is a sin but was not covered by the atoning work of Jesus Christ. If it is not a sin, then why even be concerned … you are blameless at birth and the "charge" is meaningless. If it is a sin not covered by the Atonement, then on what basis is it forgiven?

Sin is only forgiven when we repent of that sin . Christ died for the sins of the world that the world might be saved. Not will be saved. If you would read Jn.3;16 know this to be true. MB

I have no problem with John 3:16...my question was directed at the first post (mine was the second).

You addressed questions to me quoting me and I answered you. MB

The arrows beside the name helps to follow what was quoted. We found ourselves in a string of comments, but I was still looking towards my first post.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have no problem with John 3:16...my question was directed at the first post (mine was the second).

God in the death of Christ has chosen to freely forgive though A:: sin of the elect, and theose chosen by Him to get saved will come to Jesus to receive salvation, so his death was a real salvation, not a "hope so/poyentially maybe some will come" proposition!