Baptism and Regeneration of the Spirit

[NetChaplain]

Second, tell me how the foundation consists of apostles as the "first" set in this body (Eph. 2:20; 1 Cor. 12:28) and yet even though you believe "not many" were placed in this body prior to Christ's earthly ministry how is it they are not "first" or at least the Old Testament "prophets" are not "first" to be set in this body?

The term "first" is reference to the revealing of the Body "first" to the Apostles directly from Christ, which includes Paul on the Damascus road. Then to the world via the Apostles, and I believe the "prophets" includes OT and NT prophets, but not many commentators I'm familiar with refer to "prophets" here as exclusive to the NT prophets.

I believe it is meant that "the foundation of the Apostles and prophets" is Christ, and not these, who are built upon Him; Christ is also, as we know, the "primary corner stone" (Eph 2:20).

Another example: "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Rev 21:14). "Because He has been ministerially laid as the foundation, by the twelve apostles, for men to build their present and future happiness upon, therefore the foundations of the wall of salvation are said to be twelve" (Gill).

I believe the present dispensation began revealing the Body, and since this includes all Heavenly dwellers, it means all who are and will be there.

 

[NetChaplain]

who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1:13

It's a supernatural birth from above, solely of God. Every child of promise, OT or NT, is a child of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Thanks, I see what you mean.

 

[The Biblicist]

To me, all who are going to spend eternity in the New Heaven will be inclusive of the Body, which is where Abraham and the Baptist are now.

Again, you are side stepping the obvious contradictions in your system of thought. Why not answer the questions? However, if you can't answer the questions, I will answer yours.

No, not all believers will be in the Bride. There are those guests (Rev. 19:8-9). There are the ""saved" nations (Rev. 21:24) existing outside the new Jerusalem on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-2) AFTER the Great White Seat Judgement (Rev. 20). So no, not all believers will be in the city which is named in honor of the bride just as the city in Revelation 17:18 is named in honor of the Great Whore. Furthmore, not all in the city will be the Bride, as redeemed Israel (12 Tribes) dwells there in addition to the church (12 Apostles). So no, not all believers will be in the Bride.

 

[The Biblicist]

The term "first" is reference to the revealing of the Body "first" to the Apostles directly from Christ, which includes Paul on the Damascus road.

The text does not say "first to reveal" but rather he "SET IN" the church first apostles. This is not a list giving the order of who the church was revealed unto.

Then to the world via the Apostles, and I believe the "prophets" includes OT and NT prophets, but not many commentators I'm familiar with refer to "prophets" here as exclusive to the NT prophets.

That is not the order given in either Ephesians 2:20 or 1 Corinthains 12:28. Indeed, the order in 1 Cor. 12:28 forbids that interpretation as all that are listing following "first" are New Testament offices and gifts.

I believe it is meant that "the foundation of the Apostles and prophets" is Christ, and not these, who are built upon Him; Christ is also, as we know, the "primary corner stone" (Eph 2:20).

The apostles and prophets provided the INSPIRED scripture for church policy - the New Testament Scriptures.

Another example: "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Rev 21:14). "Because He has been ministerially laid as the foundation, by the twelve apostles, for men to build their present and future happiness upon, therefore the foundations of the wall of salvation are said to be twelve" (Gill).

I believe these are representations of the two houses of God and two covenant administrations - the bride of the Father - Israel and the bride of the Son -the church.

 

[NetChaplain]

No, not all believers will be in the Bride. There are those guests (Rev. 19:8-9). There are the ""saved" nations (Rev. 21:24) existing outside the new Jerusalem on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-2) AFTER the Great White Seat Judgement (Rev. 20). So no, not all believers will be in the city which is named in honor of the bride just as the city in Revelation 17:18 is named in honor of the Great Whore. Furthmore, not all in the city will be the Bride, as redeemed Israel (12 Tribes) dwells there in addition to the church (12 Apostles). So no, not all believers will be in the Bride.

Those during end-time Israel who've yet to believe in Christ will have their dwelling on the New Earth. I believe these are the nations and kings who will dwell on the New Earth and have "free" access to the NJ, same for the New Heavenly dwellers which are in the Body.

Concerning what will actually transpire during and after the Millennium, we can only speculate because I believe Scripture too obscure with these issues.

 

[NetChaplain]

The text does not say "first to reveal" but rather he "SET IN" the church first apostles. This is not a list giving the order of who the church was revealed unto.

It must be revealed, then implemented, which were simultaneous:

Gill: "First Apostles; as were the twelve disciples, and Paul the apostle; men that were immediately sent by Christ himself, and had their commission and doctrine directly from him; and a power of working miracles, to confirm the truth of their mission and ministry; they were sent into all the world to preach the Gospel, to plant churches everywhere, and to ordain officers in them; they were not confined to any particular church, but had power and authority in all the churches, to preach the word, administer ordinances, advise, counsel, direct, reprove, and censure."

 

[The Biblicist]

It must be revealed, then implemented, which were simultaneous:

Gill: "First Apostles; as were the twelve disciples, and Paul the apostle; men that were immediately sent by Christ himself, and had their commission and doctrine directly from him; and a power of working miracles, to confirm the truth of their mission and ministry; they were sent into all the world to preach the Gospel, to plant churches everywhere, and to ordain officers in them; they were not confined to any particular church, but had power and authority in all the churches, to preach the word, administer ordinances, advise, counsel, direct, reprove, and censure."

It makes no sense. If the prophets were Old Testament prophets, then how was that "revealed" to them and then how were the "set" in the church??? Nothing in this list has any application to anyone in the Old Testament. Sorry, but it says "set" not "revealed." Your interpretation is mere fancy without fact.

 

[The Biblicist]

Those during end-time Israel who've yet to believe in Christ will have their dwelling on the New Earth. I believe these are the nations and kings who will dwell on the New Earth and have "free" access to the NJ, same for the New Heavenly dwellers which are in the Body.

Concerning what will actually transpire during and after the Millennium, we can only speculate because I believe Scripture too obscure with these issues.

The events listed in Revelation 21-22:3 are precisely located not only after them millennium and great White throne Judgement but after the new heavens and earth are created (Rev. 21:1-2). So there is no exegetical basis to place Revelation 21:24 back in the millennium prior to the Great White Seat Judgement. That is mere fancy and completely contrary to the contextual time frame that is clearly and precisely stated.

 

[NetChaplain]

It makes no sense. If the prophets were Old Testament prophets, then how was that "revealed" to them

I believe Isa 9:6, 7 qualifies, which writes concerning the Lord Jesus' "government," which consists of not only ruling the New Earth, but mostly of ruling in those who are His--apostles, prophets, etc.

 

[NetChaplain]

The events listed in Revelation 21-22:3 are precisely located not only after them millennium and great White throne Judgement but after the new heavens and earth are created (Rev. 21:1-2). So there is no exegetical basis to place Revelation 21:24 back in the millennium prior to the Great White Seat Judgement. That is mere fancy and completely contrary to the contextual time frame that is clearly and precisely stated.

I do not understand what point you are making here.

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe Isa 9:6, 7 qualifies, which writes concerning the Lord Jesus' "government," which consists of not only ruling the New Earth, but mostly of ruling in those who are His--apostles, prophets, etc.

Your response makes no sense. 1 Corinthians 12:28 explicitly states that the prophets were "set in" the church 'SECONDLY"! However, you quote Isaiah 9:6,7 which would reveal and set them in FIRST before the apostles ever existed. Furthermore, every item listed in 1 Cor. 12:28 is New Testament in origin.

You have the building built before the foundation is laid (Eph. 2:20) which is contrary to the proper use of metaphors. Your interpretations are FORCED and UNNATURAL and mere fancy without a shred of exegetical fact.

However, the Biblical order fits this chronological order in 1 Cor. 12:28 exactly:

1. Apostles set first in the Church - Lk. 6:12; Mark. 3:12-13; Acts 1:15-21
2. Prophets - Acts 11
3. Prophets and teachers - Acts 13

Moreover, if the numerical order is one of priority of importance rather than numerical order than "secondarily" prophets must refer to New Testament Prophets as both Apostles and New Testament prophets based their teachings and writings and authenticity upon Old Testament prophets (1 Jn. 4:1) as the test of any new prophetic revelation was to be consistent with previous propehtic confirmed writings.

The consistent order is first apostles and secondarily Prophets:

1. Eph. 2:20
2. Eph. 4:11
3. I Cor. 12:28

I Corinthians 12:28 is referring to the "church" as an institution and the proper priorities God has placed upon offices and gifts in the worship service. The Apostolic and prophetic offices furnished New Testament revelation/scripture and therefore provided the metaphorical "foundation" making the institutional church "the pillar and ground of the truth." Hence, New Testament Revelation or inspired writings from New Testament apostles and prophets were regarded as more important than the other gifted men and revelatory gifts.

 

[The Biblicist]

I do not understand what point you are making here.

The "saved nations" in Revelation 21:24 are found OUTSIDE on the NEW earth which "new" earth was not created (Rev. 21:1-2) until AFTER the Great White Judgement throne (Rev. 20:12-17) and therefore cannot refer to the millennium or the Jews (Rev. 20:4-7). It is also distinguished from the 12 tribes in Revelation 21 as the 12 gates of the city are represented by the twelve tribes while these "saved nations" are OUTSIDE the city. My point is that all the saved do not constitute the bride or body of Christ in Revelation 21-22 as you have demanded and your theory of the bride demands. You have no sound exegetical basis for your theory, just fancy without facts. The facts contradict your theory.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ok, tell me how the Pre-Pentecost John the Baptist who lived an died prior to Pentecost but not only preached Christ but believed in Christ (Jn. 3:36) could be in your concept of "the bride" when you teach the "bride" is a metaphor for the Post-Pentecost body of Christ which none could enter previous to Pentecost. Sounds like a real series of knots and contradictions to me. Either the baptism in the Spirit was the means for entrance into your kind of church bride, church body or it is not, which is it? Apply your answer directly to John the Bapitst as you believe he was part of your concept of the "bride."

I don't think you are being reasonable with 1 Cor. 12:28 and "secondarily prophets." So let's go on to the above objection that I make against your theory.

Tell me how pre-Pentecost believers in Christ were added to the "body of Christ" or "bride" without the baptism in the Spirit? Every theologian that holds your theory demands that either it is regeneration or baptism in the Spirit that provides the mechanism for placing believers into this theory of the Body of Christ.

You claim John the Baptist and all previous believers were placed in the "body of Christ" and will be in "the bride" but the baptism in the Spirit did not occur until Pentecost and you deny regeneration occurred before Pentecost, so please tell me the mechanism used by God to place anyone into this mystical body previous to Pentecost.

Of course my position is that not all believers are in the "body of Christ." The metaphorical "body" is nothing more than the local congregational body considered either in its concrete reality such as the "churches" or "the church which is at..." Or in the institutional sense (1 Cor. 12:28) and consists of nothing but water baptized professed believers. I believe the future metaphorical "bride" is made up of those water baptized believers who have remained faithful to their congregational calling (2 Cor. 11:2-4; Rev. 19:6-7) while all other believers make up the "saved nations" outside of the city or the metaphorical bride of the Father - true believing ethnic Israel.

But don't distract the issue by turning to my position and making it the issue. Please answer my objections to your position first as I only provided my position to keep you from ignoring your problems by turning and asking what I believed.

 

[NetChaplain]

Tell me how pre-Pentecost believers in Christ were added to the "body of Christ" or "bride" without the baptism in the Spirit?

Of course my position is that not all believers are in the "body of Christ."

First you must understand that when I fellowship with another in the Word, I'm always being considerate and kind of the other person and therefore I find ways to reply in such manner, regardless the disagreements. So again, I suggest the same for you, as I do for everyone on all the sites with which I fellowship.

I also need for it to be known that I do not post with the intention for the reader to assume that what I'm posting is truth, but that because of what I share I desire the reader to understand and learn themselves as I do, by what God teaches them from continually using Scripture (which I believe is the same intention for you).

I believe all who will dwell in the New Heaven will consist solely of the Body--the Church; and those among the last of the nation of Israel who will not believe until they see the Lord Jesus (Jhn 20:29), which is during the first resurrection, at the start of the Millennium, will dwell on the New Earth.

Again, I believe Scripture is too obscure concerning much Eschatology, so what I think and what others think has much speculation in my comprehension.

I also believe as you do concerning that not all who will be saved (esp. Millennial Israel, whom God will finally put His Spirit in and cause them to walk in His Laws and statutes) will not be part of the Body.

I also believe that all who are in the present Heaven will be in the New Heaven, unless one might think they would be caused to leave, which would not be sensible in my opinion.

On the above two premises is what I use when searching Scripture for Eschatological truth.

For example, it helps me to know that no one will be in the physical body (except those now in the new body) after Rev. 19, due to all being "smitten" in verse 15, and the remnant being devoured in verse 21.

If all are dead after verse 9, who are those in 20:8, 9? All the wicked since Adam's time, from the last resurrection which at the end of the Millennium; "the rest of the dead" who "lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (20:5).

 

[The Biblicist]

Originally Posted by The Biblicist View Post
Tell me how pre-Pentecost believers in Christ were added to the "body of Christ" or "bride" without the baptism in the Spirit? .

Again, as far as I can tell by reading your response you completely ignored what I asked you to specifically address, and addressed what I specifically asked you not to address. Shall we try again?

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, as far as I can tell by reading your response you completely ignored what I asked you to specifically address, and addressed what I specifically asked you not to address. Shall we try again?

The Vride of Christ is His Body, His one true Church, so that all of them who wwere saved from the time of Jesus ministry foeward will be included in that group, while the OT believers will be part of the Kingdom of God, but not as part of the Church of Christ...

The new Covenant really was FAR superior to the Old One, as the saved under the first one did not have the experience of being :born again: as to all of them, as that was done to the ceratin ones that had official roles such as the prophets/priests/and kings of israel and Judah...

 

[The Biblicist]

The Vride of Christ is His Body, His one true Church, so that all of them who wwere saved from the time of Jesus ministry foeward will be included in that group, while the OT believers will be part of the Kingdom of God, but not as part of the Church of Christ...

The new Covenant really was FAR superior to the Old One, as the saved under the first one did not have the experience of being :born again: as to all of them, as that was done to the ceratin ones that had official roles such as the prophets/priests/and kings of israel and Judah...

You have been provided specific Biblical evidence that your position is simply wrong and how do you respond? You ignore the Biblical evidence and simply repeat like a parrot what has been totally disproven. Shall we try again, and this time deal with the evidence against your theory???

The Evidence:

1. "Saved nations" not in the Bride, not part of Israel as Israel is represented by "Twelve tribes" - Rev. 21:24

2. Guests at the marriage suppers are not the Bride, not Jews, not angels - Rev. 19:8-9 - but other spiritual virgins - Psa. 45

3. The terms "body" and "head" are metaphors and neither refer to any kind of spiritual union or in any context of salvation but always in context of sanctification and in relationship of "authority" under which unified service occurs.

4. The term "church" never used for anything other than the congregational body of water baptized believers (1 Cor. 12:27) always found in a concrete sense or institutional sense. Jesus uses the term 23 times and after using it the first time for what he would build as an institution the next 22 times are obviously the concrete sense of a local visible body of water baptized believers - that is the evidence.

5. The church is not the kingdom but is given the keys "of the kingdom" and is the administrative body in the kingdom.

6. Old Covenant never saved anyone but many saved prior to Pentecost by new birth (Jn. 3:3-5) circumcised in heart, given a new heart, etc.

7. The Baptism in the Spirit is never mentioned in connection with any INDIVDUAL but always in connection with only WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS as a congregational body.

8. The Universal invisible church/bride theory is the professing kingdom of God in Matthew 13 not the church of God.

 

[NetChaplain]

Again, as far as I can tell by reading your response you completely ignored what I asked you to specifically address, and addressed what I specifically asked you not to address. Shall we try again?

Last time. I believe only those of the Body will be in the New Heaven, same as Abraham and the OT believers (which aren't many) are presently in Heaven.

How that collates with how the Spirit of God regenerated them is not clear in Scripture, nor do I believe it necessary to know. But for certain, one cannot place the OT believers anywhere but in Heaven.

It is the unbelieving Israel, whom God will save later (Jerm/Ezek) that will "inherit the New Earth."

 

[The Biblicist]

Last time. I believe only those of the Body will be in the New Heaven, same as Abraham and the OT believers (which aren't many) are presently in Heaven.

How that collates with how the Spirit of God regenerated them is not clear in Scripture, nor do I believe it necessary to know. But for certain, one cannot place the OT believers anywhere but in Heaven.

It is the unbelieving Israel, whom God will save later (Jerm/Ezek) that will "inherit the New Earth."

Regeneration is only one part of the equation. The Baptism in the Spirit is the major part. The Baptism in the Spirit is both time restricted and geographically restricted by Acts 1:4-5. The time is "not many days hence" and the geographically restriction is "Jerusalem."

Now, the question is how does Pre-Pentecost saints find entrance into spiritual union with Christ prior to the baptism in the Spirit?

 

[NetChaplain]

Regeneration is only one part of the equation. The Baptism in the Spirit is the major part. The Baptism in the Spirit is both time restricted and geographically restricted by Acts 1:4-5. The time is "not many days hence" and the geographically restriction is "Jerusalem."

Now, the question is how does Pre-Pentecost saints find entrance into spiritual union with Christ prior to the baptism in the Spirit?

My Brother Biblicist - I do not understand your meaning of "time restricted and geographically restricted." Also, I believe Scripture teaches that regeneration is a result of the Spirit's baptism and they are not only simultaneous but also inseparable. Wherever the Spirit is, there is "regeneration."

Don't forget the Covenant promise of Christ to Abraham (Gal 3:16). I believe there is a definite sense here that Abraham himself and others like him in the OT are to have their part with Christ--which again means in the New Heaven, hence--the Body.