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Featured You may be teaching Justification by the Law !

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Dec 13, 2014.

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  1. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    Notice that the two are separate, "works of the law" and "hearing by faith". If faith was a work of the Law, there would be no need to separate the two.

    "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Notice in this verse the two are separated again. "Justification by the law"......"The just shall live by faith"

    Then it further explains "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." Faith cannot be a work of the law. They are separate and in opposition.
     
    #61 plain_n_simple, Dec 22, 2014
  2. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    If the accusation is that I cannot read, then I must remark that English must be your second or third language.

    Both those verses most definitely say that faith is NOT a work.

    You cannot say "saved by faith, not of works"; and then try to say that faith is a work. You would have to say "saved by faith, not of any other works." But then you would be guilty of adding to scripture.

    You cannot say "work not, but believe and your faith is counted to righteousness"; and then try to say faith is a work. You would have to change the verse to say "work not except for faith." But again, that would be adding to scripture.

    YOU'VE created a contradiction that you continue to fail to explain. Saying that these verses do not say faith is not a work is not enough; you MUST explain why you interpret it this way, when for two thousand years the world has understood it one way, but you interpret it differently.

    Please - try to explain why those verses don't say what everyone else believes they say. I'm willing to read and consider, if you're willing to actually discuss and not resort to "they don't say that." You're so willing to submit your opening posts with lots of scripture and explanation--please do the same with your defense of your interpretation of Eph 2:8-9 and Rom 4:5. Thanks.
     
    #62 Don, Dec 22, 2014
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Not one of those scriptures state that Faith is not a work of the Law ! Scripture is quite clear that Faith is a work of the Law that ought to have been done ! Matt 23:23

    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
     
    #63 savedbymercy, Dec 23, 2014
  4. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    No offense, guys, but I think it's time we pull out of this fight. It's obvious by now that savedbymercy is not going to explain the overt contradiction he's creating by forcibly stating faith to be a work. Yes, it contradicts scripture. Yes, we all know what Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 has to say on the matter.

    Savedbymercy is not willing to hear it, as three of us now have tried reasoning with him on this and he maintains his position. I admire his tenacity, almost as much as I disagree with his sentiment concerning the scripture on this issue. I hope and pray he can become settled inwardly on the scriptural truth that we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works.
     
    #64 PreachTony, Dec 23, 2014
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    don

    No they dont, neither one of them do ! Jesus indicates quite clearly that Faith is a work of the Law that ought to have been done by those people He was speaking to Matt 23:23

    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    Furthermore the Apostles cannot teach anything contrary to what Christ taught, their Doctrine is from Him !
     
    #65 savedbymercy, Dec 23, 2014
  6. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    All you've done here is re-state that these verses don't say faith is not a work. You still haven't explained why "saved by faith, not of works" means that faith is a work.

    My conclusion at this point is that you've latched on to your own personal interpretation, and you *can't* explain the contradiction you've created. It's also possible that if you do explain the contradiction, you'll realize that you're in error and have to change your way of thinking; and thus, you avoid doing so because you want to hold on to it, rather than let scripture say what it says.

    Like I said, I'm willing to evaluate an actual explanation; but "no they don't" isn't an explanation. It's a petulant child stomping his foot and screaming "because I said so!"
     
    #66 Don, Dec 23, 2014
  7. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    This corresponding verse, based on the same conversation - in SBM's own words, "the apostles cannot teach anything contrary to what Christ taught, their doctrine ia from Him." Thus, the question (that correlates to "faith" in Matthew 23:23): is loving God a work?
     
    #67 Don, Dec 23, 2014
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul taught that we MUST receive Jesus by and thru faith to get saved, wss he teaching from the Lord or what then?
     
    #68 Yeshua1, Dec 23, 2014
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    don

    Yeah, because they dont !
     
    #69 savedbymercy, Dec 23, 2014
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    pt

    Faith is a work of the Law that ought to be done Matt 23:23

    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    So if you believe that your Faith is what caused you to be Justified before God, or Saved by God, you dont believe Eph 2:8-9 and you do believe that you are Justified by the works of the Law as Per Gal 2:16

    16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    I think you have been warned !
     
    #70 savedbymercy, Dec 23, 2014
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    yeshua

    Show me one verse that says :

     
    #71 savedbymercy, Dec 23, 2014
  12. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Yes, they do.
     
    #72 Don, Dec 23, 2014
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    You are deceived !
     
    #73 savedbymercy, Dec 23, 2014
  14. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    And thus lies the misunderstanding. No one has ever said that we are saved by our faith. We've only disagreed that faith is a work.

    We are saved by Christ's finished work on the cross. Our faith allows us to partake of that salvation. Not because our faith saves us; our belief/trust/faith is in Him, in His work on the cross.
     
    #74 Don, Dec 23, 2014
  15. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    I know you are, but what am I?
     
    #75 Don, Dec 23, 2014
  16. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    The Act of Believing is a Work like it or not !

    Eph 2:8-9

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The word works here, the greek word

    I.
    business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    A.
    that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking


    II.
    any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

    III.
    an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

    A deed done with the mind is a work we do.

    The act of believing is a work, and it is our work or act or deed; Its no less of a work , act done by us as when we hate, or lust with our mind and or heart, or the inner man. Lets Look at Gal 5:19-21

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Now the word works in Vs 19 is the greek word used in Eph 2:9 and the Holy Spirit is defining certain sins we as works, even though they are done with the mind or heart, like lasciviousness which is lust of the mind or heart, or Adultery, which can be a deed done by lsting in our heart of mind Matt 5:27-28

    27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

    28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


    Thats a work, a deed or act done but with the mind or heart. The word heart kardia means:

    I.the heart
    A.
    that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life

    B.
    denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life
    i.
    the vigour and sense of physical life

    ii.
    the centre and seat of spiritual life
    a.
    the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

    b.
    of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

    Now likewise with the act of believing with the Heart or Mind Rom 10:9

    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Thats a work, no less as Adultery in the mind or heart is a work Gal 5:19

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    Hence, if we say we are saved or Justified before God because we believed, had faith, our act of believing, then we are saying we are saved by our work or works, and its impossible to escape that conclusion !
     
    #76 savedbymercy, Dec 24, 2014
  17. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Please explain "for by grace are ye saved through faith."
     
    #77 Don, Dec 24, 2014
  18. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Uh, excuse me ? Did you read post 76 ? Please, if you are going to debate what I say, address my points I have already explained, instead of piling on me something you are responsible to explain since you introduced it !Dont be indolent !
     
    #78 savedbymercy, Dec 24, 2014
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  19. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Seriously? You accuse me of laziness?

    My simple question goes to the very heart of what you posted. Your final paragraph says that "if we say we are saved or justified because we had faith, then we are saying we are saved by our works, and it's impossible to escape that conclusion"; YET, that very first part of Eph 2:8 says "saved by grace through faith." Please explain how scripture says through faith, but faith is a work.
     
    #79 Don, Dec 24, 2014
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  20. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    And I do have to comment: did you really mean to say that belief in Jesus is the same as sinful works of the flesh?
     
    #80 Don, Dec 24, 2014
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